Fast accurate double tap?

[Remy]

I want to bring my second shot up higher on my double tap.

I’ve got a new .40S&W SVI

Bull barrel

Stainless steel guide rod and plug

Extended dust cover

I don’t know the weight main and recoil springs

4.5grs Tightgroup behind 180gr bullet

Should I try a heavier bullet?

[BSeevers]

Remy

Not preaching but are you treating 2 shots on a target as a "double tap" or a "reflex" type action

instead of 2 distinct aimed and controlled shots?

Some people have described the above "double tap" as sighting the gun and pulling the trigger fast as they can.

[38supPat]

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Quote: from Remy on 2:05 pm on April 25, 2002

I want to bring my second shot up higher on my double tap.

I?ve got a new .40S&W SVI

Bull barrel

Stainless steel guide rod and plug

Extended dust cover

I don?t know the weight main and recoil springs

4.5grs Tightgroup behind 180gr bullet

Should I try a heavier bullet?

---

Well I'm not afraid to be blunt

Equipment is irrelevant, ammo is irrelevant (resistance is futile) if you want to bring the second shot up (I'm assuming to be beside the first) then you have to aim it there and call the shot to ensure it made it.

You are likely fighting the gun, pulling down on recoil and thus bringing it down past the first impact. Watch your sights and place the second shot beside (or on) the first one. On recoil the front sight should never drop below the plain (plane? )of the rear blade. Watch it lift and return and press the shot when they realign.

Pat

[Remy]

BSeevers

Yes you're right I am treating it more like a "reflex" type action. I was kinda' under the impression that with proper trigger control and good gun balance this could be done effectively.

Yes I'm a big BEginner.

[BSeevers]

Remy

If you will trust me(I am confident all people on here, including all GM's will echo this) STOP IT!!

This is not the way to shoot well and could cost you years of frustration and training. Trigger/sight control, grip, stance are the most important things to a beginner(truth is it is the most important thing to me) These fundementals are the HARDEST thing to master. I know when you watch a good shooter it looks like they aren't trying or maybe it looks like they are shooting out of control. To shoot a pistol fast and accurate is very difficult. Get some training. The is a wealth of info here on the forum. Buy Brians book, Jerry's tapes etc. I bought both of them at least 8-10? years ago and am now learning from them, again.

I see the sight on EVERY shot and I shoot fairly fast. Now I will say as you progress what you need to see is less.

I have fired well well over 100,000 rounds, no joke, and I am just learning some things.

It has been said "Perfect practice makes perfect" Pat's advice above is right on also.

As an aside I would not have had to shoot as many rounds if the forum, books, tapes etc were around then. My gosh a lot of the people in the sport would even be deceptive to "keep you down" If you were around here I would help you. I am sure there is someone at your club who would do the same. You could spend a lifetime searching back posts on this forum. Good luck and keep posting

[Remy]

BSeevers

Thank you. Your advice is extremely helpful. I ordered Brian’s book this afternoon. I sure am glad to have found this forum.

[BSeevers]

Sounds great. You have a good attitude which is one of the keys to excelling. Read Matt B's post in "watching my recoil" that was just posted. It might be a little ahead of the game but is exactly the kind of techniques we are talking about. Good luck. That book will be helping you even when you are a master.

I just recently joined this forum and it is helping me a lot.

PS I added my rounds up and its a lot more than 100K I will not state it as no one will believe it. remember Perfect practice with 50 rounds is 10 times better than the wrong practice with 5000 rounds.(new math)

(Edited by BSeevers at 10:02 am on April 26, 2002)

[sfinney]

Ditto to all the above.... I used to assume that those 2 quick shots the good guys were making on each target were "double taps".... 2 shots with only one sight picture it seemed, wow they were quick.... but I'm reaching the level where it  IS  2 seperate shots, with sight picture for each.... makes a world of difference in score, and when done right isn't any slower, really.

In any case, you can't miss fast enough to win!

[EricW]

...another shooter saved from a life of hoplessness and despair.  The Forum is goodness itself.  

[Ron Ankeny]

I can't remember where, but I ran across an informational writing (in print or on the web) that spoke about tuning a pistol to return to the point of aim for doing the old "double tap". The article said to increase spring weight to bring shots down, and to decrease it to raise shots. There was also some babble about bullet weights. As I recall, the writer seemed legitimate with some degree of credibility. I messed around trying different guide rods, bullet weights, and springs until I got to the point where my Les Baer would put two shots side by side at about three yards. I was pretty much sold on the idea of tuning a pistol for double taps. But I was also in my infancy as far as shooting fast and accurately.

The bottom line is that I wasted a lot of time and developed some bad habits. Believe these guys when they tell you that they look at some type of relationship of the sights in relation to the target on every shot. I watch the sights and slide lift and return with splits in the range of .16 seconds out to about 8 yards. From 8 to 10 yards my splits run about .18 looking through the sights. Beyond 10 yards I need to see the front sight in the notch, lift and return, and my splits increase as the difficulty of the shot increases.  It's amazing what you can see at speed if you let yourself.

Having said that, there are plenty of guys on this board who shoot close targets using a pretty minimal sight picture if any at all. But the key is close and they have a lot of experience combined with talent. The first time I met bonedaddy (limited master and still improving) he shot a three target array through a waist high port while looking over the top of the obstacle. He shot 6 A's from the hip. But that isn't normal, and it doesn't make it right.

(Edited by Ron Ankeny at 7:12 pm on April 28, 2002)

[DogmaDog]

Hahaha,

Ron, doing a lot of tuning to get a pistol to hit at 3 or 4 yards is pretty comical.  

I just shot an IDPA match with 2 targets inside of 3 yards.  We had to engage in "tactical sequence" (1-2-1), and it took me about 3 seconds to turn, draw, and fire the 4 shots and hit the -0 zones of both targets.

Do I have some secret double tap technique?

Do I have a special method of point shooting?

The answer is NO.  All four shots were aimed.  I didn't wait to get a nice clean sight picture like I would at 20 yards, and all I was really conscious of was seeing the back end of the slide superimposed on the target, but that was "what I needed to see", right?

One thing we're taught about marksmanship fundamentals is how perfect sight alignment and sight picture should look.  What you will learn later, and only through experience (and I'm only gradually learning myself) is to instinctively gauge exactly HOW perfect you need the sight picture to be to make the shot you want to make.  At close range, you watch the sights until they are acceptable, and let the shot go...you don't wait until they're perfect, and you can still call the shot.

I started thinking along these lines before I first read this forum, and I think it is what has been summed up as "seeing what you need to see" in several threads on this board.  

Semper Fi,

DogmaDog

[Flexmoney]

DogmaDog,

Great observation.  Some of the guys here have posted on what is an exceptable sight picture...and at what distance.

I think Pat talked about knowing (testing) just how far off a hit will be a various yardages if the front sight is all the way to the left/right side of the notch.

Cool stuff.