ny32182 Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Within about the last 2-3k rounds, my "primary" Stock 2 9mm has started stovepiping once every 200 rounds or so. Maybe more most recently. So far I've replaced: Recoil spring (new 10lb) Extractor Extractor spring/roll pin Magazines No dice so far. Problem persists regardless of whether the gun is squeaky clean or has a few hundred rounds through it. I shot 300 rounds of the same ammo through my backup yesterday with no problems. All ammo gauged, and chronoed 134.5 PF out of my backup yesterday. So I really don't think it is the ammo. Any guesses? The only thing I haven't replaced that touches the ammo, other than the barrel, is the ejector. But that would require a whole new sear cage and safety to be fit (right)? Total round count on the impacted gun is 31k plus regular dryfire. None of the other springs other than the recoil spring (and now extractor spring) have been replaced, if that matters... I'm sure some of them might be due, but I can't imagine how they would cause stovepipes. Thanks for any input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justpaul Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 If you have two stock 2's swap the top end to help figure out what's going on. Also. I would replace the extractor again and make sure the area behind the extractor is squeaky clean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ny32182 Posted June 29, 2015 Author Share Posted June 29, 2015 Ah... the slides and frames kind of "wear in" to each other right? Not sure I want to do that. I just replaced the extractor; new one has only like 1000 rounds on it. The behavior was not changed. When it doesn't stovepipe, it sometimes ejects very weakly, and I think those are "near" stovepipes. The backup gun yesterday (identical parts setup in every way) was ejecting like normal a few feet out toward 3oclock with the same ammo. Has anyone ever worn out an ejector? I think I'm going to eyeball the ejectors closely sometime soon to see if there is any visual difference between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ny32182 Posted June 29, 2015 Author Share Posted June 29, 2015 Area behind the extractor was fully cleaned out when I swapped extractors. I also detail clean the slide every... 8k rounds, it appears, on average, so it didn't have 30k worth of gunk behind it before I replaced it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praetorian97 Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Do the fail to extract loads recoil the same as the others? Suggesting a potential low charge issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Might want to try an 8 or 9 lb recoil spring - it is an easy and cheap thing to do. I have a Witness limited elite with a 9mm longslide conversion and with the 10 lb spring the 130-ish power factor ammo cases just dribbled out. Swapped out to a 8 lb spring and ejection became more solid and all is now good. Feels better shooting it with the lighter recoil spring, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ny32182 Posted June 29, 2015 Author Share Posted June 29, 2015 Do the fail to extract loads recoil the same as the others? Suggesting a potential low charge issue. I definitely have not ruled this out. Recoil feels the same, but it is hard to tell the difference, for me, between, say 125pf and 135pf out of a gun this heavy. I've determined that I believe these guns run best at at least 135pf, and that is my goal. I was shooting my backup gun yesterday and chronoed 134.5. Most recently in my primary gun I've probably actually been having one stovepipe per hundred rounds. I had two in a club match Saturday where I shot about 160 rounds. I shot 300 of the same ammo yesterday out of the backup with nary an issue. Not a huge sample, but the way things are going, I'll be shooting the backup till this gets sorted out, and I expect that as time rolls on it will become more evident that the ammo is not the issue at the moment. Might want to try an 8 or 9 lb recoil spring - it is an easy and cheap thing to do. I went away from 9's earlier this year since they would start giving me problems after as little as 3k rounds. It started as issues with not quite going back into battery, and at the same time, my power factor was actually drifting downward. When the PF got low enough, in conjunction with worn out 9lb springs, I started getting really bad double feed like malfunctions. After much debate and discussion at the time (I can dig up and link the thread on this if needed) I went to 10lb recoil spring, and have been careful to keep the power factor right near 135 since then. Following those changes, I shot 6k trouble free rounds, and then the stovepipes started up. Since I was new to 10lb recoil springs, that is the first thing I changed (since I still don't know how long those last for me) but no help. Same thing for replacing all the extractor components. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gdub Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Being that the ejector is on the sear cage, maybe try taking the guts out of each sear cage and swap the sear cages between guns just to see it that's it. I don't know if the gun will feel and run like you want it to but if it ejects properly at least you know the ejector is the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceinyerface Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Trying to logic it out, as the gun becomes dirty the slide slows down and begins to eject slowly or not at all. Maybe your recoil spring is too heavy causing the slide to decelerate too quickly. Maybe you need a different lubricant. I have a 10lb spring and use 10w30 on mine and have no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nealio Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 During normal cycling the ejector is MORE than long enough to eject a round. Its the speed that the brass is hitting the ejector that dictates how far the brass flies. To me this sounds like a case of too heavy of recoil spring. Since we all learned that a "10lb spring" could mean either a 10lb or a 12lb depending on if its a long slide spring or not, which spring is it (long slide or standard)? What lubricant are you using? Is the gun silky smooth when you rack it ? How new is the hammer spring and what weight is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ny32182 Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Recoil spring is marked 10lb standard length. I came from 9's, and they were too light to work reliably past 3k rounds. When I switched to 10lb, I had no problems for the first 6k rounds, then this started up. I immediately replaced the recoil spring with another 10lb, but with no change in behavior. Hammer spring (main spring?) was in the gun from a builder, so I don't know what it is, but PROBABLY a 13lb with minimum 100k cycles on it including dryfire. It will only light Federals. Lube, currently I use a touch of slide glide on the rails, and oil on the barrel lugs and front of the barrel where it held by the slide. I have a friend I trust that was trying to talk me out of the slide glide and just go to all oil, but... haven't done that yet. Silky smooth racking? I don't know... doesn't feel really any different than any of my others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceinyerface Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Listen to your friend and try a different lube. If it works you win, if not then switch back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robport Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Just guessing, but with something this hard to find, it might be worth your while to pull the slide spring, cock the hammer and rack the slide slowly by hand to see if the fp safety plunger is hanging up slightly or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nealio Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Yeah check the bottom of the slide to see if the hole for the FPB has worn funny, or if the firing pin retainer plate isn't flush with the bottom of the slide. As said already, take the barrel and recoil system out and see off you can find where it's hanging up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ny32182 Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 I don't feel any kind of hang ups racking it, but I'll do a close inspection of the bottom of the slide on each gun for comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nealio Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 This is a long shot, but it could be the hammer spring. My Baby Eagle started acting very similar to what you are seeing. Random stovepipes. Turned out my recoil spring was sacked, so it felt ok when racking it, but it didn't have the foce needed to keep it in battery. I put a new recoil spring in and there was a lot more resistance to keep it in lockup. This could apply to the hammer spring. It could still be generating enough force to pop primers, but is sacked out a little so its not helping to hold the gun in lockup. Which then causes the gun to pop out of lockup very fast and the extractor slips off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ny32182 Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 This is a long shot, but it could be the hammer spring. My Baby Eagle started acting very similar to what you are seeing. Random stovepipes. Turned out my recoil spring was sacked, so it felt ok when racking it, but it didn't have the foce needed to keep it in battery. I put a new recoil spring in and there was a lot more resistance to keep it in lockup. This could apply to the hammer spring. It could still be generating enough force to pop primers, but is sacked out a little so its not helping to hold the gun in lockup. Which then causes the gun to pop out of lockup very fast and the extractor slips off. First time I've heard this one. The recoil spring is new, but, all the rest of the springs aren't. The hammer (main) spring in the impacted gun actually FEELS stiffer than the relatively brand new one in my other gun, but I guess it couldn't hurt to just re-spring the whole thing with known spring rates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ny32182 Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 I am in the process of replacing every other spring in the gun right now. Random idea, but is it possible that the slide stop lever is a contributing factor? I'm told they "bend but don't break" in the Tanfos. This one has never been replaced, and is 10k past the point when they seem to break in Shadows. I'm not a bullseye-accurate shooter, but it still seems to shoot the same kind of groups off hand for me as it always has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nealio Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 (edited) Who told you they bend? I don't think anything on these guns is made of a soft enough material to bend.. The only thing that seems like it could cause this that is related to the slide stop is the slide stop dragging on the slide. Have you shot the gun any more? Is it still consistently stovepiping? All signs point to the gun short stroking, which is either due to increased friction or too heavy of a spring compared to the power of your ammo. Also I would go back and re-assess your assumptions. Such as "it can't be the ammo because it works in my other gun". How much crimp are you using? Edited July 7, 2015 by Nealio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ny32182 Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 My bell and crimp are extremely minimal... I'm not even sure they touch the shorter cases at all. I gauge all my ammo in the Stegger/Shockbottle Hundo. If it doesn't drop in cleanly, it goes in a different pile that I use for slowfire stuff like chrono and group shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ny32182 Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 "Bend" might not be the right term, but what I've heard is that slide stops in Tanfos start to open up the groups when they wear out (I guess making the lockup a little inconsistent or something), where as CZs just snap. I haven't shot enough through mine yet to say from experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ny32182 Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 I guess I could take the entire barrel and recoil system out of both guns, and really isolate/compare the feel of the slide to frame fit and see if it feels like something is dragging somewhere... does that sound useful? If something is resisting slide movement that wasn't there before, I can't feel it in normal operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nealio Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Well you might leave the barrel in so you can feel if there is anything funny with the lugs and "bean". But yes that is what I would do. 31K is getting up there for a slide stop. Like I said I don't remember hearing of anyone breaking one, so I don't know the lifetime. Everyone keeps edging their replacement schedules shorter and shorter for parts on these guns so nobody has a clue on the actual life of things. To be honest, I swapped my slide stop from my Limited to another gun (that I don't shoot as much) at around 24K. That stop still has around 27K on it though and seems to be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ny32182 Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 Ok... I'll try that soon. Also I guess I could get a few hundred rounds loaded by my buddy here, he uses basically exactly the same load and would give a different perspective on the ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 They definitely snap. Snapped one in my open gun a few weeks back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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