Classifier "calculators"

[jakemaul]

Hi all,

I recently commented in another thread about a classifier calculator I'm working on that's now online and usable (https://azshooters.org/).

It works great, but I have a couple questions:

1) Does anyone know what the USPSA thinks of this sort of thing being available? Obviously they're unofficial and shouldn't be taken as gospel, but are they held in good standing or contempt by the USPSA organization?

2) What about publishing High-Hit-Factor data for the different classifiers/divisions. They're easy to calculate, but as far as I know neither the USPSA nor anyone else I've found has done so in a web app (though another thread had someone doing it by hand in a spreadsheet). I have derived all of these, but am hesitant to simply throw up a page that says "hey, here's all the 100% hit factors for all the classifiers simply because nobody else *has*. Are there any concerns about doing this? I imagine some folks would find it convenient for calculating things on their own (at the range with no internet and/or no smartphone).

As far as my app goes, let me know what you all think and what sort of features you'd like to see in a tool like this.

Cheers,

Jake

EDIT: For the record, all the data displayed by my app is publicly accessible already- nothing here would otherwise require a USPSA login to get, and I have no insider information... it just takes a lot of wandering around to put it all together.

Edited June 18, 2015 by jakemaul

[CoachLongShot]

Just played around with the app, works well. Thanks man! I like being able to pull information quick in one place. Let me play around with it some more and I'll give my .02 cents worth on features I'd like to see.

Coach.

[Sarge]

Most of us use:

www.classifiercalc.com

It works well and is always very accurate when I use it!

[jakemaul]

Most of us use:

www.classifiercalc.com

It works well and is always very accurate when I use it!

I've used that in the past myself. My club likes to shoot the newer classifier stages, and that site doesn't have 13-09... I got the impression it doesn't get updated all that often. I also wanted to do something a bit more user-focused... hence the "enter your USPSA ID" functionality. I'm hoping to add some more interesting data there, like graphing and the ability to compare yourself to other shooters.

It's also partly a way to challenge myself. I'm not a web developer/designer by trade, but it's very adjacent to my field and I'd like to be better and more knowledgeable at it. It wasn't very motivating building toy/demo apps that nobody wants, and this is a nice way to do something that hits on one of my hobbies and simultaneously (hopefully) helps fill an actual need.

[jakemaul]

Just played around with the app, works well. Thanks man! I like being able to pull information quick in one place. Let me play around with it some more and I'll give my .02 cents worth on features I'd like to see.

Coach.

Thanks! I've started keeping track of feature requests, bugs, etc, so that would be really helpful.

In particular someone has already requested a "reverse calculator" functionality - "what HF do I need to make GM/M/A/B/C class?" instead of "I shot X, what % is that?".

[gng4life]

Nice tool, thanks. One thing that's annoying is when you check your percentage (after you put in the classifier and hit factor), it reverts back to Limited and 03-02. It would be nice to keep it on the one you just checked if you want to play with the hit factor to see what your percentage would have been if you did X and Y.

The "reverse calculator" function would be awesome.

[jakemaul]

One thing that's annoying is when you check your percentage (after you put in the classifier and hit factor), it reverts back to Limited and 03-02. It would be nice to keep it on the one you just checked if you want to play with the hit factor to see what your percentage would have been if you did X and Y.

Agreed, this bugs me too... I'll see if I can do about it. Thanks for the feedback!

[johnsons1480]

One thing that I would find more useful, and that would differentiate you from Classifiercalc, would be to include the HHF next to the percentage. That's why I made that spreadsheet in the other thread.

[jakemaul]

One thing that I would find more useful, and that would differentiate you from Classifiercalc, would be to include the HHF next to the percentage. That's why I made that spreadsheet in the other thread.

Yeah, I'm still debating on this point. I've found conflicting information as to what the USPSA feels about publishing HHF data- older things seem to say they'd prefer it was not published (though they admit it's not hard to calculate an individual one), but someone also mentioned they said they were planning on doing it themselves in a recent (last ~2 years, I forget exactly) board meeting, and just hadn't had time.

If anyone can clarify this with a recent statement from them, that would be great. I'd love to not have to worry about it.

My own thinking is that it's not the sort of information that needs to remain secret- anyone can figure it out given time, and someone looking to use the data for ill (for instance, intentional sandbagging by figuring out what HF they need to shoot to stay under a given classification) can easily do so on their own if they care very much.

Not publishing the data doesn't seem to serve any significant purpose that I can see. But all the same, I'd rather not antagonize them.

[johnsons1480]

One thing that I would find more useful, and that would differentiate you from Classifiercalc, would be to include the HHF next to the percentage. That's why I made that spreadsheet in the other thread.

Yeah, I'm still debating on this point. I've found conflicting information as to what the USPSA feels about publishing HHF data- older things seem to say they'd prefer it was not published (though they admit it's not hard to calculate an individual one), but someone also mentioned they said they were planning on doing it themselves in a recent (last ~2 years, I forget exactly) board meeting, and just hadn't had time.

If anyone can clarify this with a recent statement from them, that would be great. I'd love to not have to worry about it.

My own thinking is that it's not the sort of information that needs to remain secret- anyone can figure it out given time, and someone looking to use the data for ill (for instance, intentional sandbagging by figuring out what HF they need to shoot to stay under a given classification) can easily do so on their own if they care very much.

Not publishing the data doesn't seem to serve any significant purpose that I can see. But all the same, I'd rather not antagonize them.

I guess I'll keep that spreadsheet out there until you make your decision then. I don't really care how they feel about it to be perfectly honest. It's information that's easily attainable, and something they should have published a long time ago.

[ZackJones]

I would say to publish them. If USPSA doesn't like it they'll let you know.

I'm classified in all divisions but the overall only pulls SS (which it's duplicating) and production for some reason.

[johnsons1480]

I would say to publish them. If USPSA doesn't like it they'll let you know.

I'm classified in all divisions but the overall only pulls SS (which it's duplicating) and production for some reason.

It doesn't pull any of my info with my member number

[jakemaul]

I would say to publish them. If USPSA doesn't like it they'll let you know.

I'm classified in all divisions but the overall only pulls SS (which it's duplicating) and production for some reason.

It doesn't pull any of my info with my member number

Your clubs aren't publishing full match data to USPSA, only classifier info.

For example, Bay Area Practical Shooters:

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-display-match-results-listing.php?club=st01&club2=&year=2015

Eagle Gun Range:

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-display-match-results-listing.php?club=ga16&club2=&year=2015

The ones that do show up for you, Zach, are the ones from South River Gun Club:

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-display-match-results-listing.php?club=ga09&club2=&year=2015

I just learned about this yesterday, that clubs can do this (report classifier data but not create a match). Apparently it's more widespread than I realized.

I can probably pull that sort of classifier data from your profile pages. The downside is it won't be there until after the USPSA has processed it, and all I'd have is the percentage... it would (currently!) just be a mirror of what they already show.

By chance are either of your clubs reporting their data to Practiscore? I might be able to pull from there instead...

[jakemaul]

I would say to publish them. If USPSA doesn't like it they'll let you know.

I'm classified in all divisions but the overall only pulls SS (which it's duplicating) and production for some reason.

The duplication of your single stack data appears to be because that club uploaded that match twice:

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-display-match-results-detail.php?indx=10293

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-display-match-results-detail.php?indx=10292

I dunno how common this is, but I can probably add a "bad match" exclusion list to drop the earlier one- looks like they probably just messed up the match date the first time, and then uploaded again with the correct date, but never cancelled / removed the first upload.

Thanks for pointing it out! No idea how I can detect this offhand, but I can at least work around individual cases.

[jstagn]

How accurate is classifiercalc?

[jakemaul]

How accurate is classifiercalc?

It seems to be fairly reasonable a lot of the time. It is, however, missing several stages- for example, check the 13-series classifiers under the Revolver division. There's stages missing in 09-xx also, and in SS/Lim10 as well, though those are less affected.

According to the dates on the site, classifiercalc.com hasn't been updated in 15 months, which means any high-hit factors set since March 2014 probably aren't represented there. If you only shoot the older ones (99-xx, etc) it's probably pretty good... they've been around a long time and the best scores are pretty well established... even if someone has done better since then, it's likely to be a very small improvement, and thus they're calculator numbers will still be pretty close.

If your club prefers to shoot the newer classifiers (mine does), it's probably not as accurate on average, as they don't have anywhere near the same level of runs on them, and thus the high-hit-factors are likely less well-established. There's a non-zero chance it won't be able to calculate your percentage at all.

[jstagn]

Thanks jakemaul, exactly the info I was looking for.

[Sarge]

Thanks jakemaul, exactly the info I was looking for.

However, in spite of the shortcomings he mentioned I have always found it to be exactly in line with the percentages uspsa comes up with each month. There seems to be a recurring theme with these calculator sites. They get left unattended once they get cranked up. I used CMCalc for awhile but it simply died from lack of follow up by the developer I guess. There is a real need for a uspsa calculator tool of some kind. Maybe this new one started by the OP will stay current and active?

[johnsons1480]

I would say to publish them. If USPSA doesn't like it they'll let you know.

I'm classified in all divisions but the overall only pulls SS (which it's duplicating) and production for some reason.

It doesn't pull any of my info with my member number

Your clubs aren't publishing full match data to USPSA, only classifier info.

For example, Bay Area Practical Shooters:

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-display-match-results-listing.php?club=st01&club2=&year=2015

Eagle Gun Range:

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-display-match-results-listing.php?club=ga16&club2=&year=2015

The ones that do show up for you, Zach, are the ones from South River Gun Club:

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-display-match-results-listing.php?club=ga09&club2=&year=2015

I just learned about this yesterday, that clubs can do this (report classifier data but not create a match). Apparently it's more widespread than I realized.

I can probably pull that sort of classifier data from your profile pages. The downside is it won't be there until after the USPSA has processed it, and all I'd have is the percentage... it would (currently!) just be a mirror of what they already show.

By chance are either of your clubs reporting their data to Practiscore? I might be able to pull from there instead...

Both of the clubs you mentioned upload their matches to Practiscore.

[johnsons1480]

Thanks jakemaul, exactly the info I was looking for.

However, in spite of the shortcomings he mentioned I have always found it to be exactly in line with the percentages uspsa comes up with each month. There seems to be a recurring theme with these calculator sites. They get left unattended once they get cranked up. I used CMCalc for awhile but it simply died from lack of follow up by the developer I guess. There is a real need for a uspsa calculator tool of some kind. Maybe this new one started by the OP will stay current and active?

I emailed all of the incorrect and un-updated scores I found to the guy that runs classifier calc. I didn't even get a response much less a website update. I do hope that the OP will keep his updated, but the only way to guarantee this is done is to have USPSA publish and maintain the list and somehow hold them accountable.

[jakemaul]

SS (which it's duplicating)

Should be fixed, I excluded the older of the two matches.

[jakemaul]

Thanks jakemaul, exactly the info I was looking for.

However, in spite of the shortcomings he mentioned I have always found it to be exactly in line with the percentages uspsa comes up with each month. There seems to be a recurring theme with these calculator sites. They get left unattended once they get cranked up. I used CMCalc for awhile but it simply died from lack of follow up by the developer I guess. There is a real need for a uspsa calculator tool of some kind. Maybe this new one started by the OP will stay current and active?

I can't make any promises (I've got a real job, and this site doesn't make any money), but I have lots of plans and features to add, including some things that are specific to central-Arizona shooters. I don't anticipate going away any time soon.

Also, more or less everything is automate-able, and will be set up as such very soon. I'm currently running updates by hand, but it just amounts to running a script. It will be a regularly-scheduled-task soon. Hopefully that will mean even if I do stop working on it, it will continue updating itself anyway.

[jakemaul]

Thanks jakemaul, exactly the info I was looking for.

However, in spite of the shortcomings he mentioned I have always found it to be exactly in line with the percentages uspsa comes up with each month. There seems to be a recurring theme with these calculator sites. They get left unattended once they get cranked up. I used CMCalc for awhile but it simply died from lack of follow up by the developer I guess. There is a real need for a uspsa calculator tool of some kind. Maybe this new one started by the OP will stay current and active?

I emailed all of the incorrect and un-updated scores I found to the guy that runs classifier calc. I didn't even get a response much less a website update. I do hope that the OP will keep his updated, but the only way to guarantee this is done is to have USPSA publish and maintain the list and somehow hold them accountable.

Yeah, I kinda expect that if the USPSA ever really gets serious about web-based things, they'll largely put apps like mine "out of business". I'm perfectly okay with that... they *should* be at the forefront of things like this. Sites like mine only exist because people feel a need for data they're not able to get straight from the USPSA. Clubs are largely all run independently, and (in my experience) generally have very minimal IT/web experience or budget. They limp along on their own, let alone inter-operating with other nearby clubs.

The end result is I feel there's a hole in the market, and neither side has really acted (or been able to act) to effectively fill it. Maybe I can at least make it smaller.

[Sarge]

Thanks jakemaul, exactly the info I was looking for.

However, in spite of the shortcomings he mentioned I have always found it to be exactly in line with the percentages uspsa comes up with each month. There seems to be a recurring theme with these calculator sites. They get left unattended once they get cranked up. I used CMCalc for awhile but it simply died from lack of follow up by the developer I guess. There is a real need for a uspsa calculator tool of some kind. Maybe this new one started by the OP will stay current and active?

I emailed all of the incorrect and un-updated scores I found to the guy that runs classifier calc. I didn't even get a response much less a website update. I do hope that the OP will keep his updated, but the only way to guarantee this is done is to have USPSA publish and maintain the list and somehow hold them accountable.

Yeah, I kinda expect that if the USPSA ever really gets serious about web-based things, they'll largely put apps like mine "out of business". I'm perfectly okay with that... they *should* be at the forefront of things like this. Sites like mine only exist because people feel a need for data they're not able to get straight from the USPSA. Clubs are largely all run independently, and (in my experience) generally have very minimal IT/web experience or budget. They limp along on their own, let alone inter-operating with other nearby clubs.

The end result is I feel there's a hole in the market, and neither side has really acted (or been able to act) to effectively fill it. Maybe I can at least make it smaller.

Sounds good! Thank you

[Nimitz]

FYI ... USPSA is in the middle of a major upgrade to their website which is supposed to include a lot of new features .... never seen a list of the planned attributes of this new updated site but one of things that (at one time at least) was planned was what I'll call 'continuous' classification updates ... no more just running the classifications on the 15th of the month only so that if you miss it by a day you have to wait an entire month for another update. If true & when it's working , that may put you guys out of business (depending on other features) but given how fast HQ does things you're probably safe for a while ...

BTW: classificercalc is notorious for being way off on the recent classifiers where there's not a lot of data. I forget which one but it was over 27% off when I used it last year, clac said I shot an 87% & when the official USPSA scores hit it was a 60% score. It was so far off and always had been right on before I contacted HQ about what I was sure was a mistake .... they patiently explained what was going on .... nice app BTW ...

Edited June 19, 2015 by Nimitz