Painting Targets

[ZackJones]

I was reading through the rules this morning and found this:

5.5 Target Painting: All targets are to be painted white and will be repainted prior to each contestants first run on each course of fire.

At our club when a shooter shoots two guns RFPO and RFRO for example most of the time the shooter shoots back to back. When this happens we don't paint the targets. I realize now we are in violation of rule 5.5. I know another club that uses the same practice. I'm curious to know what you folks do at your club. If s shooter is shooting multiple guns do you normally run them back to back or do you separate them? Do you paint between runs?

[racnsoonr]

We only paint before we leave the bay for the next squad

[kmca]

Well, the rule reads "shall be repainted prior to each contestants first run on each course of fire" , so, if you're doing each contestant's runs back to back, you did repaint for the contestant's first run and the contestant never left the course of fire.

Just sayin

[P.E. Kelley]

We only paint before we leave the bay for the next squad

+1

[scottlep]

We do it after each shooter. I have shot matches where they barely paint the targets at all....not a big fan when I can't see my own hits. I am good at calling my shots and have had many times where I called a miss but was able to see that I had an edge hit and kept moving. Also, not painting the targets in between shooters makes it very hard if a shooter wants to dispute when an RO calls a miss but it might have been an edge hit or a shot hit a dead spot on the steel and didn't ring well. If there are 100 hits on the plate how can the RO/shooter properly dispute it?

We also don't let shooters shoot two guns back to back since it could give them an advantage (this might be in the rules somewhere too...or maybe not). We usually run all of the shooters with their first gun, then move through the rest of the squad and come back to the people shooting a 2nd gun/division.

[P.E. Kelley]

At the 3 somewhat local matches to me we only paint between squads. Only bragging right on the line so no one really worries about it.

The local clubs shoot for fun so they ask that us to paint between squads.

At the championship events painting between shooters is implemented.

Edited May 27, 2015 by P.E. Kelley

[pmd]

.... not painting the targets in between shooters makes it very hard if a shooter wants to dispute when an RO calls a miss but it might have been an edge hit or a shot hit a dead spot on the steel and didn't ring well. If there are 100 hits on the plate how can the RO/shooter properly dispute it?

Agreed..

We always paint between shooters at our local match as it's the right thing to do...

[ZackJones]

Thanks for the replies. It's interesting to see how other clubs do it.

Well, the rule reads "shall be repainted prior to each contestants first run on each course of fire" , so, if you're doing each contestant's runs back to back, you did repaint for the contestant's first run and the contestant never left the course of fire.

Just sayin

What's interesting is "course of fire" is not defined in the rule book. So after completing 5 runs with my rimfire pistol is my course of fire complete or is it complete after I've shot my rifle? We aren't having any issues at our club match but I'm thinking ahead for our tier II match in October and I'm thinking we'll want to paint after every run.

We also don't let shooters shoot two guns back to back since it could give them an advantage (this might be in the rules somewhere too...or maybe not). We usually run all of the shooters with their first gun, then move through the rest of the squad and come back to the people shooting a 2nd gun/division.

It's not in the rules that I've seen but I would be interested to know what advantage the shooter gets by shooting back to back. I suppose you could say the first run could serve as a warm up for the second run and I suppose that's true. For me the differences between shooting a pistol and rifle are great enough that I don't perceive any advantage.

For our NSSF matches where we shoot the same stage with pistol and rifle we do shoot all stages with pistols and then go back through them a second time and shoot with rifles.

[pmd]

It's not in the rules that I've seen but I would be interested to know what advantage the shooter gets by shooting back to back. I suppose you could say the first run could serve as a warm up for the second run and I suppose that's true. For me the differences between shooting a pistol and rifle are great enough that I don't perceive any advantage.

For our NSSF matches where we shoot the same stage with pistol and rifle we do shoot all stages with pistols and then go back through them a second time and shoot with rifles.

I think there is an advantage shooting back to back - be it two pistols or a pistol and a rifle. I've done it when allowed.

That being said If I was the Match Director and was the one making the call I would not allow it.

[kmca]

Thanks for the replies. It's interesting to see how other clubs do it.

Well, the rule reads "shall be repainted prior to each contestants first run on each course of fire" , so, if you're doing each contestant's runs back to back, you did repaint for the contestant's first run and the contestant never left the course of fire.

Just sayin

What's interesting is "course of fire" is not defined in the rule book. So after completing 5 runs with my rimfire pistol is my course of fire complete or is it complete after I've shot my rifle? We aren't having any issues at our club match but I'm thinking ahead for our tier II match in October and I'm thinking we'll want to paint after every run.

We also don't let shooters shoot two guns back to back since it could give them an advantage (this might be in the rules somewhere too...or maybe not). We usually run all of the shooters with their first gun, then move through the rest of the squad and come back to the people shooting a 2nd gun/division.

It's not in the rules that I've seen but I would be interested to know what advantage the shooter gets by shooting back to back. I suppose you could say the first run could serve as a warm up for the second run and I suppose that's true. For me the differences between shooting a pistol and rifle are great enough that I don't perceive any advantage.

For our NSSF matches where we shoot the same stage with pistol and rifle we do shoot all stages with pistols and then go back through them a second time and shoot with rifles.

At higher level matches, shoot one gun through all the stages. Shoot the other gun either later in the day, or if it's a big shoot, it's done on another day.

[danjordan78]

Paint between every shooter no matter the match. It's only fair for the shooter to be able to see their hits and be able to challenge a call. That's like not taping between each shooter in a uspsa match or not painting poppers. We may not have calibration but we do have 3 second penalties for misses.

If people are shooting two guns separate them. Have at least a couple of people go between them. Let's them reload mags and no muscle or mental memory from just sorting it. Definite advantage.

[Nimitz]

I tell the ROs to always paint after each shooter .... Unless the shooter specifically says they don't want it ... At which point I explain the "danger" of the decision but don't push it .. Everyone is an adult. I have never seen a shooter shoot 2 guns back to back at my matches. It slows things down while you wait for them to put one gun away and get the other one prepped.

Personally,I always volunteer to go first on my squad (shooting open) and then ask to put 2-3 shooters between me before I shoot RFPO ... And I always insist on the targets being painted for me before my run ....

[jdphotoguy]

We paint between each shooter and if you are shooting more then one gun, which is rare for us, you shoot the first gun, then we run a few shooters before you run again.

As with someone else's comment, running two guns back to back gives that competitor a bit of an advantage over others as he/she is getting a practice run to dial things in.

[ZackJones]

I'm glad I asked about this. At our match the majority of shooters shooting two guns shoot back to back. I had not considered there being an advantage. We have a barrel with a table top on each side of the shooting box. The shooter uses the left barrel for mags/bags, etc. and the right on holds the tablet, timer, and paint cans. When we come to the line we bring both guns and all mags needed to run them both. We'll ask the shooter which they prefer to shoot first and then score that run. Because no one requests paint between guns once the first gun is bagged we immediately issue "make ready" for the second. For our June match I'm going to require shooters to shot one gun and then get back in line before shooting the second one and see how that goes.

[P.E. Kelley]

Please don't take this the wrong way but practice before the match "gives" competitors an advantage too.

Again, at local dirt shoots where only bragging rights at stake who really cares?

I love to shoot local events whenever I can and most clubs and shooters want to get

to the shooting and get done.

If they allow for back to back (for shooters who are ready too) it does shorten the day.

Not painting saves a small club money too.

Just a different opinion from someone who has experience with 3 clubs that don't paint between shooters.

[danjordan78]

No offense taken by me since I am one of the ones with a differing opinion. I like discussion like this, but a couple of things to think about:

Practicing before the match does not "give" the competitor an advantage. It is an advantage that is "earned" by doing extra work. Big difference in my opinion. Someone getting to shoot the stage 10 times in a row is certainly "given" an advantage that not everyone else is entitled to.

Matches are matches. Some people like to have more fun, some people like to keep them as serious as they can. No matter which side of the game you are on it should be the same rules for everyone. To not paint for someone that is trying to possibly get good and actually improve themselves in hopes of doing well at the Nationals or Worlds should be able to have as close to the same conditions as possible. I totally get it that there are people that just want to have fun, but that shouldn't be at the expense of someone that wants to take it serious. If the club can't afford paint, charge more for entry fees or make competitors bring a can as part of their entry fee (I've seen clubs do that).

Here's an example of why I think someone shooting back to back is not right/fair. Would you consider it right/fair at a 3gun or USPSA match if some of the competitors got to shoot the stage a time or two as a warm up and then go for score on their last run? But you only get to shoot it once and that's your score? That's the way I see shooting back to back in steel. A major part of the game is making the five runs you have count, from a cold start. We already get one throw away, no more, no less. If I were to shoot my open 9mm and then my open .22 gun it would be a major advantage because the two are so close.

I'm one of the people that treat my matches as matches. They are not practices to me. Those I do at home and on my own time. I really do want to do well at this sport and I work very hard at it. Any match I go to I would expect there are others there that believe the same thing. If I have to bring my own $5 can of spray paint and ask to paint before I shoot to make that happen I will.

[pmd]

Well said danjordan78.

[ZackJones]

I emailed DNROI asking about shooting back to back and there's no rule against it. Troy did state that painting between courses of fire (guns) is required per rule 5.5 so we will be implementing that starting with our next match.

[P.E. Kelley]

I guess I have been barking up the wrong tree guys...none of the clubs I shoot are USPSA / Steel Challenge.

Carry on.

[drysideshooter]

I guess I have been barking up the wrong tree guys...none of the clubs I shoot are USPSA / Steel Challenge.

Carry on.

Shooting at some of the same clubs that you do, I know just what you mean. We are practically in the USPSA headquarters back yard and most of the clubs in our area that were holding Steel Challenge matches are now shooting ISSA steel matches. Patrick made it to our inaugural ISSA match in Tricities last weekend. Mike Gallion, who used to shoot a lot of Steel Challenge (referesh my memory as I can't recall how many senior national and world championships he has) is the U.S. contact for ISSA and he made it to our little inaugural match. Our club is now affiliated with ISSA. It's a great, grass roots organization.

It was really cool to have some distinguished shooters at our first match, in addition to Patrick and Mike we had a former national junior USPSA champion at the match. We also had a bunch of great Cowboy Action shooters, some of the local USPSA shooters, and quite a few first time shooters. We painted between squads, which seems to be the common practice in this area for regular monthly matches. On some stages I have seen everything painted between shooters if there was a reason.

[P.E. Kelley]

I had a great time and I will most certainly be back!

[drysideshooter]

I had a great time and I will most certainly be back!

Awesome! We will be having a match in July, and every month after. We aren't doing one in June because of the big matches in Yakima and Ephrata that month. Because of other scheduled matches at the range we will primarily be shooting the 1st Sunday of each month, but will also have some matches on the 4th Saturday of months with 5 Saturdays. We are looking at next October for a big multi stage match. Thinking of maybe having our big match over two days on a Saturday and Sunday. Thinking of limiting it to 80 guns, plus RO's and score keepers, with folks only shooting one gun per day. At least 8 stages, 4 squads of 10 each day. Squads start on staggered stages so every squad starts on a stage with another empty stage in front of them. Nice catered BBQ lunch done on site each day. We will provide an RO and score keeper for each squad.

Are you shooting the big match in Yakima next weekend Patrick? How about Ephrata on the 20th? We are signed up for both and looking forward to them.

[Bill Filiaga]

Paint the targets after every shooter. How else can one be sure that the shooter earned a hit or miss.

Its all about fun for me, I'd have quit shooting the games years ago if not so.....The only real issue I have with shooting back to back guns is the length of time I have to stand around, Ro'ing, painting, picking brass etc.. WAITING for my turn to shoot!!!

The only advantage shooting back to back, that I see on a competitive side, would be if the two guns shot are identical in every aspect except recoil... Two different firearms ie. rifle/pistol. or two types of handguns ie revolver/semi the advantage not so much........Shooting back to back can also be a bummer, especially if your head is not in the game. You don't have the time inbetween to get your head straight.

- Bill

[photoracer]

Both points are valid. Normally when I shoot RFRO and RFPO on the same squad I shoot them back to back. So you can say yes I get 10 runs to get it right. Or if I shoot them separately you can say I have time between firearms to analyze my performance which I don't get shooting back to back. Both points are equally valid. And in the same vain both advantages, while different, can likely enhance the performance. As far as I am concerned the advantages are a wash as are the disadvantages. The only person who might be disadvantaged would be the one only shooting 1 firearm per session.

Normally I only shoot 1 centerfire per session because the logistics are different than rimfire. I could shoot both Limited and Open if I got another lower to use on my Glock 34 uppers, but that still means I would have to be running back and forth to the gun handling table to swap guns (unless I wanted to bring both to the line and swap one in the bag and one into the holster). Too much work. Could not do it with either of my double-stack 1911s because the holster won't work with both. And yes sometimes I will not require them to paint it when shooting back to back (club match only!)(saves time).

Edited June 9, 2015 by photoracer

[P.E. Kelley]

I know I am WAY in the minority, but I just shot an annual steel classic event where we were told that IF you choose

not to paint you could not challenge a target. 8 squads shot and only 2 painted between shooters.

I shot Open and Limited with the same gun. I shot Open first and Limited after a few other shooters had shot.

I had two miss penalties that counted against my overall score. No muss no fuss, I missed and that was the call.

Our squad chose to not paint after each shooter and we experienced no issues. I brought up this thread as we were shooting

and not a single person thought that painting was worth the time and expense. Beyond that people were surprised

that anyone would have an issue with back to back shooting being an advantage.

Just some info from the field from non Enos forum shooters.