RL550: Crushed Case Rims @ Station #2...Remedy?

[Lovegasoline]

I bought a used RL550, which appears to have been extremely well maintained... it is the older model and is likely 10++ years old. The previous owner even had a deluxe custom wooden case built to store it in, and it's in very nice shape as is the other equipment I purchased.

A few things were worn and Dillon sent me replacements.

However, I'm having a problem at station #2 (powder drop and belling). I'm getting cases that are crushed at the rim...not every case, but frequently enough that it is a problem. I'm loading .45 A.C.P., and have Dillon dies (older style). I'm using shellplate #1, mounted correct side up, with matching#1 retainer pins (these pins came with little blue plastic tabs that fit onto them for easy removal/replacement of the pin. I've run the press both with the plastic tab on the pins and without, and it doesn't appear to have any effect on the case crushing).

The Shellplate is mounted with what I believe to be the correct amount of play...any tighter and I cannot turn it reliably & smoothly.

What happens is the case does not maintain a proper vertical axis in the shellplate...i.e., the case wobbles slightly off vertical . The case has enough play in the shellplate at station two so that it often leans 'out' a bit, off vertical axis (as if centrifical force had acted on it). Then, when the shellplate rises and brings the case into contact with the die's powder funnel, the funnel will sometimes NOT self-center on the case ...sometimes the case will be so far off center that the rim of the case is missed by the funnel's curved radius. In these instances the 'hole' in the end of the powder funnel will just kiss the case rim and crush it….not a complete collapse of the case, but enough damage to the rim to ruin it.

It isn't an issue of the primers protruding: they are fully seated & I've experimented with primerless cases and they get crushed just the same.

If, at station #2, I keep a finger on the case to keep it in a vertical orientation it guides precisely into the powder funnel.

I called Dillon and they are sending me out an 'alignment' part of some sort, in the event the press had been disassembled and incorrectly reassembled previously.

Anyway...anyone else here experience something similar….or have any ideas about a solution?

Thanks a bunch.

Neal

[Vlad]

As far as I can tell the only way for the case to tip is if the shell plate is not tight enough. The wrong point would allow the case to slide out but not tip. But it does sound like you have it tight. So ... is anything bent? Is the shell plate itself bent or of the plate under it bent? Are the lips of one of the shell plate stations bent, worn, or thinner? Is the shellplate upside down?Is there some foreign matter between them? Is the detent ball/spring combo the right length? Is there something under the detent spring making them taller?

Just some things to look into.

[ChuckS]

Good move on calling Dillon! I bought a used (late 80's) 550 and Dillon supported it like I just bought it. I wore out the primer system and cracked the main crank! They replaced everything! Free! When I asked them about it, feeling somewhat guilty, they said: "You keep wearing it out, we will keep fixing it".

One question about your problem. Does it happen at the same position on the shell plate or any position? There may be a burr on the shellplate that tilts the cases. Also, check for burrs on the powder die. You may want to try the setup procedure for locating the dies as per the instruction manual. If you don't have one, look at the dillon web site. They are on line.

Good luck,

Chuck

[renaissance7697]

If you can't figure it out...

Send the whole shebang to Dillon

They will check it out, replace any part that looks worn, adjust everything, and test it to make sure your "problem (or any other) is fixed; before returning it to you.

The only cost to you will be one way shipping (TO Dillon).

Can't beat it!

[John Dunn]

David Tubb in his book The Rifle Shooter talks about turning the shell plate down (relieving the bottom side) so that his rifle cartridges have less wiggle room. If the shell plate is tightened down properly, and the cases still get crushed, this may be a potential solution.

[crovello]

It seams to me that the shell plate would have to be extremely loose to allow a 45ACP to tilt. With such a large diameter case you would think it would stand vertical on its own. Sounds like something on the press is assembled wrong to me.

I have taken my press apart and reassembled it without the alignment tool. It seams to be working fine but I want to order the tool and make sure it is working perfectly.

Dave

[EricW]

David Tubb in his book The Rifle Shooter talks about turning the shell plate down (relieving the bottom side) so that his rifle cartridges have less wiggle room.

You know, instinctively it seems like that would be the right thing to do. I thought that too at first, then I changed my mind. I honestly think there needs to be a *little* slop with how the case rim fits in the shellplate. That movement allows each case to self-align itself with each of the dies.

Having so much wiggle room that cases get damages is obviously wrong.

I know, I'm not David Tubb, so what the hell do I know? Well, I spend a lot of time doing automation and I don't care what alignment tool you use, you're not going to get four dies perfectly coaxial. Making the system self-aligning is the key.

FWIW.....

[Patrick Sweeney]

My thoughts too, Eric. You have to have a certain amount of wiggle room for alignment. And the idea that a shell plate is nicked, dinged, or otherwise tipped is worth investigation. One thing did occur to me: operator smoothness. If you slam the shellplate around, and lift the ram before the cases have time to stop wiggling, you'll trap one for sure. However, I've only ever done it with rifle.

Is there a lot of spilled powder? If so, that would be an indication of heavy-handed operation.

Whatever the problem is, let us know. One more tidbit of info to file away.

[rtr]

I had this problem on my brand new 550 recently. The solutions I've tried:

Use a powder funnel from a 1050, it has a constant taper instead of the bell shape, it ended the crushing problem, but the cases are not belled so you will not have consistent bullet tension, could affect accuracy.

This one was susggested by Dillon, didn't really change anything. Loosen the powder die, put an empty shell in the plate raise it to the powder die then tighten the die.

Mine still doesn't run perfectly, it seems that the tightness of the shell plate is the only obvious thing that has an impact on this.

[John Dunn]

I don't think Tubb is advocating a super tight/no wiggle fit, just taking a little slop out of the system. He also does not lock his die locking rings down tight, instead he drills through the locking rings into the quick change die holder block (or whatever it is callled) and secures them with a roll pin. The die lock rings float just a little higher than locked down, with the rotation of the die controlled by the pin. This allows the dies to be somewhat self-aligning.

It's in the book if you want to read more about it instead of my incoherent ramblings. It made sense to me when I read it. I've got some lock rings ordered and am planning to give it a try one of these days.

[EricW]

John,

That's totally cool. I get it now.

Tubb just changed *where* the self-alignment takes place - and indeed that *is* a better solution. I've often thought about doing something similar, where the threads in the toolhead are drilled out and the die is allowed to float in the toolhead with a nut on each end for retention. But, since I'm already getting sub 1/2, I just forgot about the whole thing and decided to shoot instead.

[Lovegasoline]

Lots of insightful ideas & inquiries here, it has got me thinking, which is good.

I carefully noted the tightness and slop of the shellplate that was mounted on the press when I received it (I needed to remove the .44 shellplate and put on the .45ACP [#1]). I recall when I first mounted the shellplate (SP) something felt suspicious about that ball/detent setup. When I tighted the shellplate down, it would get TOO tight and would not spin freely....yet, even when it was too tight to turn, I could still push DOWN on the shellplate and it would depress the ball/spring even FURTHER. Huh? Then I would back off the shellplate bolt a little and the SP would spin freely again. It never made sense to me that the SP should bind...maybe the spring tension was too tight? When I examined the shellplate further I noted as I tightened the SP Bolt, the index sprocket would eventually drag against the top of the Ejector Wire and bind. So I would back off the Sprocket Bolt until it sprung freely again....but introduce wobble...until I reached the best compromise. Having never owned a press before, I assumed the wobble was 'acceptable'. But then once I got used to the press and up to speed, the cases were starting to get crushed.

This time I left the Index Sprocket off and cranked the SP down....down....and down even further...to my surpise no bind was occuring with the ball detent. So it couldn't be the ball. Hum. I tested with the Index Sprocket left off and with brass in the SP...to my surprise, the cases were held stable and the cases aligned perfectly(!) with the powder die...even when I spun the SP fiercely. It was then I discovered the problem. The Index Sprocket dragging against the Ejector Wire and preventing the SP from being mounted lower as it should be.

When I first mounted the SP I had explored the Ejector Wire and it felt FIXED in position, SOLIDLY press fit into the Shellplate Platform. I took a lightweight hammer and gave it a few taps, and it lowered down. Eventually, between lightly tapping it down and prying it upwards, I got it perfectly positioned so floated sandwiched between the SP and Index Sprocket when the latter was mounted where it SHOULD be....lower than I had it previously. All of a sudden everything made sense and came into place: when I got the press, I had had to adjust the primer seating punch and raise it so it would fully seat the primers (proof to me now that the SP was too high). It was an Ejector Wire frozen in position a little TOO HIGH.

Everything is working smoothly now!

I need to readjust the height of all my dies and I'm back in business...and I'll get to see the true speed and grace the press is capable of.

Thanks again for all the suggestions!

[Patrick Sweeney]

Wow. Never saw that before. I wonder fi the guys at Dillon have, either?

[Doggorloader]

The ejector wire on mine raises every time I change the shellplates or remove them to clean.

It just held in with the tension of the wire shape against the holes.

I thought it was standard practice when replacing the shellplate to push the ejector wire all the way to the bottom of the holes before you replace and tighten the shellplate bolt. Mine interferes too if it's not bottomed out (ejector wire that is )

Tom

[Lovegasoline]

Well, I went back to the press...I couldn't sleep soundly without knowing I had confirmed the solution in my mind. I set the chronograph (chronometer??) on my watch for 5 minutes and started to reload...not as an all-out speed test, but rather to firmly and consistently run the press with a swiftness (or at least the swiftness a newbie can muster) that would mirror a fully engaged reloading session.

In the 5 minutes, I loaded 32 rounds, in rapid succession. There was no binding of the shellplate or hardware anywhere, no resistence at the interface of brass meeeting dies, all the brass was smoothly belled (no, the dies/cases have not been lubed with One-Shot...I've read much about it & will include a can with my next supply order), and the finished cartridges exited the press and passed all measurement and tolerance tests.

The problem is whipped!

I haven't fully removed the EJECTOR WIRE, but it IS possible that the end of the wire had a burr and had locked itself in the Shellplat platform....perhaps the ends had been splayed excessively to increase its holding tension when inserted into the Shellplate Platform holes, perhaps (since the press is older...how old I do NOT know but possibly early 1990s or even from the 1980s)... perhaps the Ejector Wire was midly siezed in place for over a decade and the gent who owned it before me just loaded slowly and dealt with the case rim damage on occasion...or maybe it was just a freak bind that occured just recently. The difficulty in solving the issue was my assuming that the Ejector Wire was fixed in place and was a non-adjustable component.

[ChuckS]

I thought that the wire was loose on my old 550 but I had to check to verify. Yup, you can pull it out with your fingers. You have to pinch it a tad to get it into the holes but it could not hold the shell plate up. Next time you strip the machine for a caliber change/clean, pull it out. I would almost bet there is something in the hole(s) that you crushed with the hammer. Or just good ole' rust. The nice thing about my old 550 is that it was born in the desert in the late 80's and lived in SoCal it's whole life. Santa brought me a 650 so now the old press is just resting in a box waiting for me to figure out what I want to do with it.

(~400 rds/hr is the top rate I ever achived with the 550)

[Putty]

I thought that the wire was loose on my old 550 but I had to check to verify. Yup, you can pull it out with your fingers. You have to pinch it a tad to get it into the holes but it could not hold the shell plate up. Next time you strip the machine for a caliber change/clean, pull it out. I would almost bet there is something in the hole(s) that you crushed with the hammer. Or just good ole' rust. The nice thing about my old 550 is that it was born in the desert in the late 80's and lived in SoCal it's whole life. Santa brought me a 650 so now the old press is just resting in a box waiting for me to figure out what I want to do with it.

(~400 rds/hr is the top rate I ever achived with the 550)

Give it to the EricW charity.

[ChuckS]

Give it to the EricW charity.

Love too! Shipping, however is in the vicinity of $300.

Seriously, I am torn on what to do with the 550. My bench is not huge so having 2 machines set up right now cuts into room where I clean guns and stuff. The 650 is great but I have yet to do a caliber change (and probably won't untill after Area 2: This year I am sticking with one gun for the whole year) so I am not sure how much hassle it is. There is allways a remote possibility of getting a rifle (is USPSA still an in to CMP?) so I would use the 550 for the rifle rounds. Nice problem, eh? Too much Dillon hardware

[Putty]

No way,.....$300 for shipping to WA.? Maybe $90. I will take it off your hands and pay the shipping.