Table start - taking mags with you

[Marshal82]

So we had a stage last local match where you started with gun on the table and all spare mags also on the table. We were required to place both (2) spare mags on the table to stow them before leaving the shooting position.

Typically I only see a shooter require to take the needed ammo to finish the stage, usually only one mag. Typically I will only lay one mag on the table knowing I will only need the one to finish the reload and leave the second spare mag in my bag. In this case we were required to lay both spare mags on the table and stow both mags before leaving the shooting position.

What do you guys think, I've read the rulebook and cannot find anything to cover this specifically.

[High Lord Gomer]

I have gotten a PE for putting two mags on the table and only taking one with me. I was told that I could put (and take) just one, but if I put two there, I had to take both.

Doesn't answer your questions about being required to put two on the table but is related.

[newboy]

I am no expert, but I would not want to have a malfunction in a stage and not have an extra magazine. Take both.

[v1911]

If the stage description was to take all mags before proceeding, they yeah, a PE would result for not following directions.

[Butterpuc]

As v1911 said, if it's in the course description I can see why you got a PE.

[GOF]

Rule Book, or not, the COF is the Bible (rightly or wrongly) and there is a very specific penalty (5.1.1.1.) for failing to follow the procedures outlined in the COF description. If that said "take all magazines on the table with you when you leave"... and you did not... it is a PE.

[Marshal82]

Good comments and I agree you must take all mags laid on the table. However can you only lay one spare mag on the table or are you required to lay both down? The SO on the stage said you must lay both down because that is what you carry and shoot all stages with...even though I may carry 2 spare mags I really only use the one most of the time.

I've seen this multiple times over the years and I've always only laid one mag down and picked the one mag up as I moved.

[GOF]

Marshal82 -- it depends upon what the COF description says. If it says "All ammo carry devices and they must be then carried with the shooter", then that could mean the two spare magazines you are allowed to carry in IDPA. If it just says "spare ammunition to be used in the COF" , then you'd have a valid point about just laying out one mag.

Rule Book aside... the COF description pretty much becomes "The Bible" and what you have to live with on that particular stage, And, what you have to do. A well-written COF description is a blessing! Unfortunately, such literary talent is not always inherent among MDs.

In doubt.... when the SO asks "Do you have any questions about this stage?" Answer if you do!!!. Ask the SO. If they say yes, then you're "Good To Go!". If they say "No" then do what they tell ya!

If the SO says you can do it they are not likely to call a PE on you for what you did after the SO said you could do it. Been a SO since 2007, and... answering questions is just part of the job description. If you're not sure.... the time to ask is before the SO yells " Standby!"

[Marshal82]

Understood, I'm an SO myself. COF sets the rules. In this case COF didn't specify one mag or 2, the SO on the stage did. The rulebook doesn't describe how many mags must be laid on a table start. I questioned it for sure, I was the first shooter and he told me right before I shot that I needed the other mag on the table.

Oh well, just wanted an opinion on what you guys have seen in this regard and if the rule book cited anything different than what I've read.

It can be risky to ask SO's specific questions on the stage like, can I do this? If it's within the rule book then you can, and asking those questions always alerts the SO that your pushing the edge or trying their limits.

[GOF]

Your actions may be within the Rule Book -- but that doesn't always mean that it is within the 'understanding' the SO/MD have of the Rule Book. Tribal Rules have, and continue to be, a problem at some clubs. I have (after the 2011 Worlds, a few Nationals, and a bunch of State & Regional championships) become a fan of 'asking the SO'.

It's tough for them to call a PE if they told you that you could do it.

[Butterpuc]

When I'm a CSO at a major IDPA match I do my best to review my bays stage(s), whether they are my design or someone else's to look for these kind of potential issues. I even ask my SO friends / gamers to be "the Devils advocate" and ask tons of questions. That way I do my best to be constant throughout the match.

Sometimes it's tough.

[bikerburgess]

Understood, I'm an SO myself. COF sets the rules. In this case COF didn't specify one mag or 2, the SO on the stage did. The rulebook doesn't describe how many mags must be laid on a table start. I questioned it for sure, I was the first shooter and he told me right before I shot that I needed the other mag on the table.

Oh well, just wanted an opinion on what you guys have seen in this regard and if the rule book cited anything different than what I've read.

It can be risky to ask SO's specific questions on the stage like, can I do this? If it's within the rule book then you can, and asking those questions always alerts the SO that your pushing the edge or trying their limits.

I would say that iss the USPSA way of looking at things, IDPA tends to us a unless we said you can then you cant kind of rule interpretation

Edited December 31, 2014 by bikerburgess

[Marshal82]

Understood, I'm an SO myself. COF sets the rules. In this case COF didn't specify one mag or 2, the SO on the stage did. The rulebook doesn't describe how many mags must be laid on a table start. I questioned it for sure, I was the first shooter and he told me right before I shot that I needed the other mag on the table.

Oh well, just wanted an opinion on what you guys have seen in this regard and if the rule book cited anything different than what I've read.

It can be risky to ask SO's specific questions on the stage like, can I do this? If it's within the rule book then you can, and asking those questions always alerts the SO that your pushing the edge or trying their limits.

I would say that iss the USPSA way of looking at things, IDPA tends to us a unless we said you can then you cant kind of rule interpretation

This is exactly why IDPA has a bad rep to some people and why I try hard to play by the rule book. It's the reason I ask questions on stages if they are not following the rule book and why I don't ask if I can do something that is by the rule book.

[Marshal82]

When I'm a CSO at a major IDPA match I do my best to review my bays stage(s), whether they are my design or someone else's to look for these kind of potential issues. I even ask my SO friends / gamers to be "the Devils advocate" and ask tons of questions. That way I do my best to be constant throughout the match.

Sometimes it's tough.

I typically do the same and commend you for making sure you understand the stage but every approach to that stage. I enjoy stages that have a very simple COF because they were written within the rue book. It's also up to the shooter to know the rules and play by them, I expect the same from any SO.