Question using Bullseye Powder

[anm2_man]

A couple of months ago I purchased some pretty old Bullseye powder (I would guess MFG in the 1970s) It was sealed and it spent its life on a shelf in Phoenix. I have to assume it was in a garage.

I loaded up 100 rounds of test ammo using the Bullseye powder. I'm using Berrys 124grn RN projectiles, in range brass with Magtec primers. The Alliant reloading site showed a jacketed RN 124 grn projectile with a Max of 4.5 gr of Bullseye. My press was setup for 4.3 grn of Titegroup (that I've been using for years and has worked with no problems), So I left the powder measure the same and loaded the 100 rounds with Bullseye @ 4.3 grns.

I tested it in my hand gun and it seemed under powered but it did cycle the gun (Ruger LC9). But since it was summer, I had no way of using the the Chrono to get velocity (inside shooting facility). Titegroup with the same load and projectile get me around 1300FPS.

I was able to take out my Sub gun a couple of weeks ago (Smith & Wesson 76). The Titegroup rounds shoot with no issues in this gun. The Bullseye load did not. As I have said it seems under powered and would not cycle that gun.

According to the the load specs, bullseye should of had enough power to cycle the subgun, but it didn't. Could this be a problem with just OLD powder that has lost some power ?

Any of you guys have experience with OLD powder ???

[rdinga]

How did the powder smell? That is the first sign it has started to break down chemically?

Did you weigh the charges? If you did not reset your powder measure, my guess is the charge is lighter than you think with Bullseye due to the different powder volume.

[rtp]

So I left the powder measure the same and loaded the 100 rounds with Bullseye @ 4.3 grns.

How did the powder smell? That is the first sign it has started to break down chemically?

Did you weigh the charges? If you did not reset your powder measure, my guess is the charge is lighter than you think with Bullseye due to the different powder volume.

^ this.

Your PM isn't (likely) measuring weight, it's measuring volume, and I seriously doubt BE and TG have the same volume/mass.

Did you weigh the charges of BE being thrown? (as asked above, as well)?

[Hi-Power Jack]

Any of you guys have experience with OLD powder ???

I am an expert with OLD powder - using some Red Dot

from 1963

As stated above, if powder smells ok, it's fine.

As stated above, I'd weigh your measure of Bullseye powder - doubt you have

4.3 grains. Each powder will vary with weight if measured volumetrically.

[56hawk]

My press was setup for 4.3 grn of Titegroup (that I've been using for years and has worked with no problems), So I left the powder measure the same and loaded the 100 rounds with Bullseye @ 4.3 grns.

Looking up the density of those powders, it looks like you are probably loading around 3.4 grains of Bullseye.

[fishsticks]

Did you weigh the charges? Like the poster above, I suspect you are loading way fewer grains that you think. 4.3 gr Bullseye on 124 gr MG JHP makes minor. Similar load only using 124 fr RN uses only about 3.7 or 3.8 gr TG tp get the same results. There was a fair bit of adjustment to the powder measure between the two loads. As the posters above indicate, Dillon powder measure uses volume, not weight. You need to weigh charges and adjust as needed when changing powders.

You also really need a chrono when doing load development.

Edited November 15, 2014 by fishsticks

[noexcuses]

when you switch powders, you need to weight your charges, doing it the way you have done could blow up your gun. I would suggest getting a good reloading manual and doing some reading.

[anm2_man]

Thanks for the responses, and YES I checked just 30 of the 100 rounds that I built and all were right at 4.3grn. I was truly amazed that the volumes were the same. Bullseye measured at the same weight as Titegroup. Note I use a dillon 650 with dedicated tool heads.

Also the powder smells ok. It smells the same as the jug of Titegroup.

I de-milled one and tested the powder load - Here is a pic. It came in at 4.2gr.

[anm2_man]

I stand corrected. There was a major powder adjustment going from Titegroup to Bullseye.

Maybe this powder is on the verge of going bad and has lost some of its potency ?

[peterthefish]

I stand corrected. There was a major powder adjustment going from Titegroup to Bullseye.

Maybe this powder is on the verge of going bad and has lost some of its potency ?

Not sure what you mean by this. Based on the volumetric density chart I have, a measure giving you a 4.3 GR charge of Titegroup should give about a 3.4 GR charge of Bullseye. Is that about what you found?

As long as the powder is stored properly it should last decades...

[anm2_man]

I stand corrected. There was a major powder adjustment going from Titegroup to Bullseye.

Maybe this powder is on the verge of going bad and has lost some of its potency ?

Not sure what you mean by this. Based on the volumetric density chart I have, a measure giving you a 4.3 GR charge of Titegroup should give about a 3.4 GR charge of Bullseye. Is that about what you found?

As long as the powder is stored properly it should last decades...

The problem is I don't know if it was stored properly. I bought from a guy on a local gun board FTF. I've tried to PM him but he has not answered. So based on the first picture I posted, Does anybody have an IDEA on how old it maybe ?

Edited November 19, 2014 by anm2_man

[cjim]

I stand corrected. There was a major powder adjustment going from Titegroup to Bullseye.

Maybe this powder is on the verge of going bad and has lost some of its potency ?

I have 40 yr old unique and bullseye that look like the container was just opened. Your BE looks good, color wise.

Edited November 19, 2014 by cjim

[mikeinctown]

I stand corrected. There was a major powder adjustment going from Titegroup to Bullseye.

Maybe this powder is on the verge of going bad and has lost some of its potency ?

Not sure what you mean by this. Based on the volumetric density chart I have, a measure giving you a 4.3 GR charge of Titegroup should give about a 3.4 GR charge of Bullseye. Is that about what you found?

As long as the powder is stored properly it should last decades...

I also find it VERY hard to believe that he is getting the same charge out of both powders without re-adjusting the measure. I'm also looking at using more BE per charge in my .45 than I am using with TiteGroup.

[anm2_man]

I stand corrected. There was a major powder adjustment going from Titegroup to Bullseye.

Maybe this powder is on the verge of going bad and has lost some of its potency ?

Not sure what you mean by this. Based on the volumetric density chart I have, a measure giving you a 4.3 GR charge of Titegroup should give about a 3.4 GR charge of Bullseye. Is that about what you found?

As long as the powder is stored properly it should last decades...

I also find it VERY hard to believe that he is getting the same charge out of both powders without re-adjusting the measure. I'm also looking at using more BE per charge in my .45 than I am using with TiteGroup.

Mikeinctown - No the charges are different

[anm2_man]

I stand corrected. There was a major powder adjustment going from Titegroup to Bullseye.

Maybe this powder is on the verge of going bad and has lost some of its potency ?

I have 40 yr old unique and bullseye that look like the container was just opened. Your BE looks good, color wise.

Cjim

So it looks like this stuff could be 40 years old.

I think I'm going to go out and chrono it and if its less than 900fps, its got to be the powder since I DO HAVE 4.3 +/- .1 grains of BULLSEYE in each round.

I'll update this thread after I chrono these rounds.

[thermobollocks]

Definitely chrono. If you do a lot of experimentation at indoor ranges it would be worth your time to set up an incandescent light box or your money to grab a full blown IR setup. I learned very, very early that a proper chronograph beats the wrist chrono (similar to the butt dyno for you car people) every time.

[anm2_man]

Definitely chrono. If you do a lot of experimentation at indoor ranges it would be worth your time to set up an incandescent light box or your money to grab a full blown IR setup. I learned very, very early that a proper chronograph beats the wrist chrono (similar to the butt dyno for you car people) every time.

What is an incandescent light box ? or a full blown IR setup ? I have a chrony, but can't use it at the indoor ranges. So when I started this load, it was in the middle of summer and The great state of Arizona is closed to outdoor shooting due fire danger.

[thermobollocks]

Definitely chrono. If you do a lot of experimentation at indoor ranges it would be worth your time to set up an incandescent light box or your money to grab a full blown IR setup. I learned very, very early that a proper chronograph beats the wrist chrono (similar to the butt dyno for you car people) every time.

What is an incandescent light box ? or a full blown IR setup ? I have a chrony, but can't use it at the indoor ranges. So when I started this load, it was in the middle of summer and The great state of Arizona is closed to outdoor shooting due fire danger.

If you have a chronograph that uses visible light, you build a box around it with some incandescent or LED light inside it. There are also some pre-built accessories that might fit what you've got. Then, the flickering of fluorescent light indoors isn't a problem.

Other chronographs are able to run off infrared and therefore don't care what the ambient light is like.

[nyyrus]

+1 --^

So I left the powder measure the same and loaded the 100 rounds with Bullseye @ 4.3 grns.

How did the powder smell? That is the first sign it has started to break down chemically?

Did you weigh the charges? If you did not reset your powder measure, my guess is the charge is lighter than you think with Bullseye due to the different powder volume.

^ this.

Your PM isn't (likely) measuring weight, it's measuring volume, and I seriously doubt BE and TG have the same volume/mass.

Did you weigh the charges of BE being thrown? (as asked above, as well)?

[anm2_man]

Definitely chrono. If you do a lot of experimentation at indoor ranges it would be worth your time to set up an incandescent light box or your money to grab a full blown IR setup. I learned very, very early that a proper chronograph beats the wrist chrono (similar to the butt dyno for you car people) every time.

What is an incandescent light box ? or a full blown IR setup ? I have a chrony, but can't use it at the indoor ranges. So when I started this load, it was in the middle of summer and The great state of Arizona is closed to outdoor shooting due fire danger.

If you have a chronograph that uses visible light, you build a box around it with some incandescent or LED light inside it. There are also some pre-built accessories that might fit what you've got. Then, the flickering of fluorescent light indoors isn't a problem.

Other chronographs are able to run off infrared and therefore don't care what the ambient light is like.

Cool stuff - But the big problem in Arizona is we have too much sunshine. Some times I need to wait until Noon to start testing, because if the sun is to low, the chrony can't see the projectiles.

[thermobollocks]

Definitely chrono. If you do a lot of experimentation at indoor ranges it would be worth your time to set up an incandescent light box or your money to grab a full blown IR setup. I learned very, very early that a proper chronograph beats the wrist chrono (similar to the butt dyno for you car people) every time.

What is an incandescent light box ? or a full blown IR setup ? I have a chrony, but can't use it at the indoor ranges. So when I started this load, it was in the middle of summer and The great state of Arizona is closed to outdoor shooting due fire danger.

If you have a chronograph that uses visible light, you build a box around it with some incandescent or LED light inside it. There are also some pre-built accessories that might fit what you've got. Then, the flickering of fluorescent light indoors isn't a problem.

Other chronographs are able to run off infrared and therefore don't care what the ambient light is like.

Cool stuff - But the big problem in Arizona is we have too much sunshine. Some times I need to wait until Noon to start testing, because if the sun is to low, the chrony can't see the projectiles.

With a light box or an infrared chrono that problem goes away too.