Stlhead Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Sorry Tony, you left that one just sitting there. My thoughts on the Grendel. If you absolutely must have a small frame AR for longer range shooting then it CAN be better than .223. But if you can run a large frame AR or a bolt gun, why not shoot a 6mm and enjoy some real benefits. 105 hybrids at 3000 fps or better are wind bucking lasers of steel hitting happiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Sometimes piss in a barrel will give pressure signs, did you blow a primer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) No pressure signs because I also substitute my urine for the gunpowder. If I drank enough coffee that day I can launch 75 grainers to 1000yds with no drop. As far as your opinion goes, I would have to agree with you, if I was building a no compromises long range gun it would probably be a bigger 6.5 cartridge. The reasons I'm set on a Grendel are: I've already got an ar15 that I'm itching to build another upper for, my gun collection is such a size that I cannot justify another complete gun without selling some others (which I'm finding very hard to do), I promised my wife after I assembled my 3gun arsenal I'd be done buying guns for awhile, I can build an upper slowly one piece at a time with little initial financial investment, and I can do it sneaky enough that my wife maybe won't notice and I won't technically be breaking my promise. Also factory ammo is relatively cheap and available at the moment. If I get something that's terribly expensive to shoot I'll just keep attempting long range with my 223 while my actual long range rifle collects dust. Edited October 28, 2014 by TonytheTiger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Also Mr. Stlhead, why do you emphasize that the Grendel CAN be better than the 223 for long range? I will never shoot heavier than 75gr 223 loads, 69 is much more likely. With any ballistics computing I've seen or done the 123gr A max load blows any mag length 223 load out of the water when it comes to wind drift. Not being argumentative, I'd just like to hear more of your opinion and possibly get into a friendly debate if I'm lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I had Sterling's purpose in mind when I wrote that. Three arrays of targets; BC at 500, 20" square at 700, 40" square at 900. Targets typical engaged after shooting an entire Ironman stage from a soft dirt berm in variable winds ranging from 5 to 25 mph (if you are lucky). You have to hit the targets, and hit them fast or you end up hurting your score, even if you do hit them. If your gun chokes, you better hope it does so before your first shot, because there is a sizable time investment in getting your gun and getting it to the firing position. The majority of shooters would do better to not even engage the targets if score was the their main concern, but for many the score is secondary to raising to the challenge of the stage, so More power to the shooters. The Grendel is a fringe chambering that is at a competitive disadvantage to most other choices for this particular application. Why limit yourself to a small frame AR with case capacity issues when you are free to choose a more mainstream solution that offers better ballistics as well as better component selection. One of my buddies has a hard on for the Grendel, I wish him well with it, but I have yet to see an application where it would be the best choice for me. In your case where you are committed to not getting a "New" gun I would build another AR upper for a division that I did not currently shoot or even just wait and save up for a more appropriate long range rifle. My guess is you will spend $1000 on building the Grendel before you are done and that is before optics. Thats half way to a starter bolt gun, and a quarter of the way to a premium gas gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 My Stlyheaded friend, I agree with you that there are better rounds out there for PRS etc. however at the time (several years ago) I did not own a large platform system so my intention was to use the smaller platform. Having been down the road a ways I can say that it is a pleasant round to shoot - very little recoil; quick follow up shots; and its been touted by many for its capability to ring steel between 400-1000. I'm in it for fun right now and experience/knowledge gain. One of these days I might try something else - 300 Norma Mag comes to mind but that's a ways off . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1974 Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 I've been testing the 6.5 for a while and really enjoy the round. Here's the latest results for several different rounds from last week: The graph is cool but not really fair, I push a 175 smk at 2712 in my Winchester bolt and 2610 in my ar10 lilja both are 308I guess at this point I will just build another 223 for now anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Sterling pretty much beat me to it. I don't disagree with much you said Stlhead, I don't think the Grendel is even close to being the greatest cartridge ever, but I do think it's the greatest thing to fit an ar15 magwell, and since that's what I have to work with at the moment, that's what I'll probably end up doing. And it will cost about $2200, about half that being the scope which is the only substantially expensive part but its easily swapped onto a different gun or sold if need be. The purpose will be 80% fun and the rest for the occasional local PRS type match we have that only goes to 750 with reasonably sized targets. For the relatively small investment I'll have into it I don't think I'll be losing too much from cartridge choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianATL Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 (edited) But here is fair your ar10 load at 2610 w/175 smk falls behind the Hornady factory 123 amax load out of my 20" AR15 at 2575 fps. Its also cheaper and easier to shoot than the AR10 platform. For punching paper and ringing steel the Grendel is going to equal or better moderate 308 loads (not 308's hot rodding 155's) Edited October 29, 2014 by BrianATL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1974 Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 But here is fair your ar10 load at 2610 w/175 smk falls behind the Hornady factory 123 amax load out of my 20" AR15 at 2575 fps. Its also cheaper and easier to shoot than the AR10 platform. For punching paper and ringing steel the Grendel is going to equal or better moderate 308 loads (not 308's hot rodding 155's) It is a nice round but,I looked at Hornady's ballistic program and nightforce's I can't really agree with you. the energy is not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 We're not taking about energy nor critter chasing as far as I know, simply the ability to send a projectile towards the center of a piece of steel or paper. Energy figures are often completely lost on competition shooters not needing to meet a power factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianATL Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 But here is fair your ar10 load at 2610 w/175 smk falls behind the Hornady factory 123 amax load out of my 20" AR15 at 2575 fps. Its also cheaper and easier to shoot than the AR10 platform. For punching paper and ringing steel the Grendel is going to equal or better moderate 308 loads (not 308's hot rodding 155's) It is a nice round but,I looked at Hornady's ballistic program and nightforce's I can't really agree with you. the energy is not even close. Plenty of energy to rock steel and punch a hole in paper. (read carefully) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1974 Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 (edited) But here is fair your ar10 load at 2610 w/175 smk falls behind the Hornady factory 123 amax load out of my 20" AR15 at 2575 fps. Its also cheaper and easier to shoot than the AR10 platform. For punching paper and ringing steel the Grendel is going to equal or better moderate 308 loads (not 308's hot rodding 155's) It is a nice round but,I looked at Hornady's ballistic program and nightforce's I can't really agree with you. the energy is not even close. Plenty of energy to rock steel and punch a hole in paper. (read carefully) Using that philosophy so does Eley 22 long rifle, but it is not much fun. Edited October 29, 2014 by usmc1974 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgj3 Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Ring steel at 600+ yds with Eley .22LR...? Show me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 If I could reliably hit a silhouette at 900 yards and hear the impact with 22lr, you better believe that would be my cartridge of choice. Think of the money I'd save! But you almost can't hear it on steel at 300 yards so I've given up on it as my primary long range round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianATL Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 But here is fair your ar10 load at 2610 w/175 smk falls behind the Hornady factory 123 amax load out of my 20" AR15 at 2575 fps. Its also cheaper and easier to shoot than the AR10 platform. For punching paper and ringing steel the Grendel is going to equal or better moderate 308 loads (not 308's hot rodding 155's) It is a nice round but,I looked at Hornady's ballistic program and nightforce's I can't really agree with you. the energy is not even close. Plenty of energy to rock steel and punch a hole in paper. (read carefully) Using that philosophy so does Eley 22 long rifle, but it is not much fun. Wow! hard to argue with persuasive logic like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 But here is fair your ar10 load at 2610 w/175 smk falls behind the Hornady factory 123 amax load out of my 20" AR15 at 2575 fps. Its also cheaper and easier to shoot than the AR10 platform. For punching paper and ringing steel the Grendel is going to equal or better moderate 308 loads (not 308's hot rodding 155's) It won't better the .308, but it won't be far behind. Even comparing the Hornady factory 123gr against my 178gr handloads, the Grendel is only slightly behind on windage. It does, go transonic about 100yds before mine but that's not that big a deal at 1000yd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1974 Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 But here is fair your ar10 load at 2610 w/175 smk falls behind the Hornady factory 123 amax load out of my 20" AR15 at 2575 fps. Its also cheaper and easier to shoot than the AR10 platform. For punching paper and ringing steel the Grendel is going to equal or better moderate 308 loads (not 308's hot rodding 155's)It is a nice round but,I looked at Hornady's ballistic program and nightforce's I can't really agree with you. the energy is not even close.Plenty of energy to rock steel and punch a hole in paper. (read carefully) Using that philosophy so does Eley 22 long rifle, but it is not much fun. Wow! hard to argue with persuasive logic like that. LOL ah!! yea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianATL Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 But here is fair your ar10 load at 2610 w/175 smk falls behind the Hornady factory 123 amax load out of my 20" AR15 at 2575 fps. Its also cheaper and easier to shoot than the AR10 platform. For punching paper and ringing steel the Grendel is going to equal or better moderate 308 loads (not 308's hot rodding 155's) It won't better the .308, but it won't be far behind. Even comparing the Hornady factory 123gr against my 178gr handloads, the Grendel is only slightly behind on windage. It does, go transonic about 100yds before mine but that's not that big a deal at 1000yd Jeez can you people not read I compared two specific loads(USMC load against a factory load which it does beat) and the Grendel load does exceed THAT 308 load I specifically mentioned the Grendel load doesn't beat every 308 load. Fact of the matter the 308 or Grendel both suck at 1000 yards but it is commonly thought that the 308 is a adequate cartridge to 800 + - yards I was just showing that at these ranges the Grendel and 308 are pretty much equal in elevation and wind drift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 I'm with you Brian, I can read. Same exact thing happens during 6.5CM vs. 300 Win debates, starts with 140gr Amax vs. 190gr (SMK?) loads then some bitter 300WM fan turns it into a 120 Amax vs. 230 Berger VLD debate. This is not a case of doing more with the most, it's a doing the most with less kind of cartridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Jeez can you people not read I compared two specific loads(USMC load against a factory load which it does beat) and the Grendel load does exceed THAT 308 load I specifically mentioned the Grendel load doesn't beat every 308 load Yes, I can read. And I DID compare the factory loads and no, the Grendel doesn't beat the 175gr .308 but it's not far behind. And, I went further to compare that Grendel load to my 178gr custom load and, as I said, it's not far behind that either. They are close enough that depending on what ballistics program you use and what default conditions you use, you are going to get slightly different results. And, the Grendel is going to go transonic sooner than the .308 which means that once you get beyond a certain distance the difference will increase faster. I'm not knocking the Grendel at all. I'm building one. I think that it's a great middle distance caliber. But I've shot against guys using Grendels and once they got to 800yds, they started having much more trouble with wind than I did with my .308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1974 Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 Where I shoot most of my long range is at spear point ranch. Stage 1 is always the same.400 to 1300 is a steel target 16"x18" two shots at each in in 5 minutes. Then a 36" x 24" at 1400 yards. I hit out to 800 all the time. Before I run out of time with my boltgun. But,a lot of the guys I shoot with hit out to 1200 all the time with both 308 and the grendel with the AR. Platform. It might be nice to do it with the small AR but pricey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianATL Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 175 SMK 2600 FPS 123 Amax 2575 fps 1000 yards 1000 yards Drop 417 inches 405 inches wind drift/10 mph 102 inches 91.9 inches Hmm maybe we define winning differently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 No, that's pretty much how I define winning. Usmc, why do you say the Grendel is pricey? Not saying your wrong but my research indicates a pretty good bang for your buck. Get it, BANG for your buck? Funny aren't I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1974 Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 (edited) No, that's pretty much how I define winning. Usmc, why do you say the Grendel is pricey? Not saying your wrong but my research indicates a pretty good bang for your buck. Get it, BANG for your buck? Funny aren't I? I would not mind having one but, I like all my 308 stuff, and mostly just spend money on powder primers and bullets right now. Edited October 29, 2014 by usmc1974 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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