Richard C.

[BeerBaron]

sounds like you are on the path. Taking a course with someone like charlie will no doubt help move you forward a lot. You learn a lot from matches too so it's good you are getting out and competing, you just have to practice what you learned in dry fire and live fire practice.

There are plenty of 'ample gentlemen' who have made M or GM in this sport. They shoot it differently to some of the lightly more sprightly guys. The bigger guys need to plan well. They need to maximize the number of targets they can see in each position and they need to shoot faster within those nice stable positions to make up for the fact it may take them longer to get into and out of positions being heavier. It's certainly do-able.

[Richc2048]

I shot a match this Saturday and had the best match to date. I don't know what I did differently but it worked.

I won 2 of the 5 stages for production and shot my first classifier above 60%. That is my first B class classification. A 73%!

I think stage breakdown was the key. Once I developed a play of how to do it I constantly worked on which targets to engage first, where my feet were positioned etc... Cha-Lee's class and just having a day to practice with him and his super shooters really helped me.

Looking at the stages and telling myself the training for area 2 starts at this match really helped. I think I do better with stress. It puts importance in it which makes me look at the little things to make sure everything I'm doing is the best way to do it.

I did have a stage where I planned it out and during a run before I was up someone mentioned and explained how engaging this target first would be better. I did see it and agreed but I ran it in my head so many times my way that I didn't. I'm glad he mentioned it because I will definitely run his sequence the next time I see that same kind of setup. I just couldn't break what I was doing already.

I am certain that B class is achievable by the next shooting season so my doubts about GM are gone. I'm positive I have many thing to improve and see that I'm not maxed out. Just maxed out with my skill and that will go up with time, training and patience.

I've heard that the minute it feels like work you should take a break but to me it feels like the more I make it work, the sweeter advancing in classifications is going to feel. I have no doubt in my head that the current GM's didn't get there by taking it recreationally. They saw a goal they wanted and worked their butts off to achieve it. Not to say they weren't having fun getting there. To me the fun is moving up and trying to be the best. All my life I've had the mentality that doing something not everyone can/want to do is what I like and how I satisfy my self worth. (Navy, working on cell towers 500ft in the air etc..)

Seeing my shooting go dramatically better in just 8 month has only proven to me that it's totally worth it.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Richc2048

[d_striker]

I shot a match this Saturday and had the best match to date. I don't know what I did differently but it worked.

I won 2 of the 5 stages for production and shot my first classifier above 60%. That is my first B class classification. A 73%!

I think stage breakdown was the key. Once I developed a play of how to do it I constantly worked on which targets to engage first, where my feet were positioned etc... Cha-Lee's class and just having a day to practice with him and his super shooters really helped me.

Looking at the stages and telling myself the training for area 2 starts at this match really helped. I think I do better with stress. It puts importance in it which makes me look at the little things to make sure everything I'm doing is the best way to do it.

I did have a stage where I planned it out and during a run before I was up someone mentioned and explained how engaging this target first would be better. I did see it and agreed but I ran it in my head so many times my way that I didn't. I'm glad he mentioned it because I will definitely run his sequence the next time I see that same kind of setup. I just couldn't break what I was doing already.

I am certain that B class is achievable by the next shooting season so my doubts about GM are gone. I'm positive I have many thing to improve and see that I'm not maxed out. Just maxed out with my skill and that will go up with time, training and patience.

I've heard that the minute it feels like work you should take a break but to me it feels like the more I make it work, the sweeter advancing in classifications is going to feel. I have no doubt in my head that the current GM's didn't get there by taking it recreationally. They saw a goal they wanted and worked their butts off to achieve it. Not to say they weren't having fun getting there. To me the fun is moving up and trying to be the best. All my life I've had the mentality that doing something not everyone can/want to do is what I like and how I satisfy my self worth. (Navy, working on cell towers 500ft in the air etc..)

Seeing my shooting go dramatically better in just 8 month has only proven to me that it's totally worth it.

Cha-Lee's classes are good stuff. I went from a D to B in about 4 months after taking a few of his classes. Then I had to stop shooting for a bit.

[Richc2048]

I shot a match this past weekend and did rather well. I didn't win the match or anything but I felt like I did very well for the level that I'm at and didn't have any big screw ups. I basically shot it as good as my experience/ability allows.

I knew there were a few stages where I could have done better if I was proficient in shooting on the move but knowing that trying this would give me horrible points so I basically ran it with 3 shooting stations and it worked out well. I did notice that I recently started to transition between targets and move out of positions a lot more aggressively than I normally do and that helped a lot. I do need to work on getting into a shooting position a LOT more. It's hard to stop this 200lb beast on short notice and have sights on target before I am at a complete stop. I was reviewing the scores and I am happy to say that I can now match or get close to the best times but have a few points less or have the same amount of points or more doing it a few seconds slower. I'm happy with the fact that with more practice I will be able to at least be a competition to some of the folks who win the stages/matches around here. I shot another "B" classifier so It won't be long until I am able to get that B card. Funny how I just got my C card in the mail a little over a month ago.

I went to the range today and brought my variety of rounds that I've developed over the months to see if my ability is finally at a point where different ammunition may help or hurt me. I noticed that I was able to get shots on target faster and more accurate with the 124's I developed vs the 147's I've recently tried. I also had my first experience with "trigger freeze" and it was with the 147's three times. It was a shock to me. I would like to hear from the experienced shooters here how long did you give a new load a try before you gave up or if you knew from the start that it was just not your style. I've been reading and hearing how these 147's are the bee's knees when it comes to softer shooting loads. I did notice it was a little softer but couldn't make it beneficial for me. I'm wondering if I just need to practice with these a lot more.

Also, what was the biggest hurdle in jumping from C to B and then from B to A. Was it more working on the fundamentals and acing the classifiers or was it more just working on the stages and the speed for the classifiers came from that? I notice that there are a lot of great shooters in B and A that shoot very good and probably should be classified higher but they just struggle on the classifiers. I definitely don't want to "Grand-Bag" and then be stuck in a classification where I'm hopelessly loosing the stages compared to all the others in my respective class. Hopefully next year I will be asking what the biggest hurdle is for jumping from A to MASTER!!!!

[Glock26Toter]

I'm glad you felt good about the shooting last weekend.

Seems like you are doing a great job at analyzing your performance and focusing on what's going well. The fact that you are breaking things down, making sure you are doing what you have to in order to score well is an achievement in itself.

I think the move from C-B is all about shooting well, THEN hauling ass. You are on track with that. Keep up the good work.

This brings me to your next point about the bullets you are trying. I went through similar issues. People said, "try this, they are better" and I couldn't see an advantage and therefore chose not to change just for change sake.

I kept shooting what worked for me and my gun. Only recently have I seen what that difference can give me because I was looking for a specific solution to a problem I identified. It was muzzle climb and when I tried the new bullets my muzzle climb changed just enough to be a solution. Before that, those bullets were a solution to a problem I didn't know I had.

That was a really long way of me saying, shoot what you like. Listen to advice of other shooters and wait until YOU see an improvement from equipment changes before you implement them. I use this method for all my equipment.

Anyways, I might not be qualified to try to help, but like to see others improve and I thought I would throw my 2 cents in.

[Richc2048]

I took my break while I visited my wife's family in Tennessee. I didn't bring my gun and I didn't even think about guns or matches or load development etc... I think that was the first in 7 months. I haven't gone a day without thinking about it so this was very refreshing. I'm back now and there is a bowling pin match tomorrow I'm attending. I am eager to get back in the saddle.

I also have to make a decision on my load development. Do I stick with the 124gr JHP from precision delta and extremes or do I start practice with the 147's and hope I increase my returns eventually once I get used to the softer push?

I'm leaning towards sticking to what I know and shoot 124's but I keep second guessing myself thinking the 147's might give me a push to get better results. I feel like "if it ain't broke don't fix it" but what if I don't know the 147's will just give me a boost in my shooting. Aaaah!

Future Richard, I hope your happy with my decision once I make it.

[CHA-LEE]

Don't worry so much about trying to find a "Magical" ammo load. Whatever you end up shooting the most, you will do the best with it because you will get use to the feeling and timing of it. If the 124's are working better for you right now, then stick with them. You can use the 147's up shooting drills while training where shooting fast or transitioning fast are not part of the drill. For example, you can burn up those 147's shooting slow fire groups to hone your basic marksmanship skills. You could also do one shot draws, or shot to shot reload drills. When doing that type of training it really does not matter what type of ammo you are using as long as it goes BANG when you want it to.

[Richc2048]

Thanks Charlie. That's what I thought too but I didn't know if I was screwing myself and if this was considered not training outside the box.

Thanks for the idea on what drill to use them on. That makes sense. I definitely need a reason to work on some of those drills.

[d_striker]

... it really does not matter what type of ammo you are using as long as it goes BANG when you want it to.

This.

And that it will make PF without stressing at the chrono stage. If you go sub-minor you're not shooting for score anymore.

Edited January 5, 2015 by d_striker

[Richc2048]

That's a good point about PF. The 124's I use are 128-130 all day long. plenty of room to spare.

[Richc2048]

I didn't do a match this week but I did have a range session Friday and got to practice Saturday at an outdoor bay where we were able to setup a course.

Friday's session went well. All I practiced on is really small group shooting at 10 yards and one shot draws from the holster. I noticed that I improved over repetition but there was an filter problem and we had a cease fire for about 20 min. After that break my draws were back to when I first started and built back up. So I guess my match performance will be my cold draw times.

Saturday's stage style session was great. I built confidence and technique in shooting on the go while still making hits and found out I am terrible at steel at distance. It was a very humbling experience to say the least. I was determined to try and resolve it while I was there but it whooped my butt till the very end.

I really need to get more practice in at long range targets.

I've been practicing things that'll take fractions of a second off my scores when there are things on the table that will take away like 8 seconds or eliminate mikes. Those are what I'm going to concentrate on.

1. I think working on 25 yard shots is key. I need to be comfortable with any and every shot a stage may have.

2. My dry fire needs to be more than just with my gun. I can work on movement. Like the movement while shooting requires more skill in not bouncing around than anything.

3. Experiment. I need to find my "style" of shooting.

[Richc2048]

I had a great few weeks of shooting since the last entry. I've had 3 matches of steady shooting. By no means are they perfect but I do have some consistent scores now where I could gauge where I am at as far as my shooting skills. I am slowly creeping my way into B class. Man it's tough. I have a few scores above 60% now so I know it can be done. A few months ago I was in the stink and could not see it happening. Now that it is close I can cast the doubt away when I am approaching A, them G, then GM. It can happen even if it looks impossible at times. I just need to keep working on it.

The one thing I see I am doing now that I wasn't before is stage planning and movement. I have really started to push how fast I am moving into and out of positions and movement. I still have a lot to do but that one little thing did allow me to start beating some of the people in matches that were always beating me. I still have a lot to work on.

I don't think Ive improved much on the skills rate I did earlier. I guess movement was the only one I could add a point to on how I scored myself on. I have been really slacking in practicing what needs to be done to improve. I've been going to these matches every weekend and not really working on dry fire as much as I would like. Even when I go to the range, I feel my time could be better spend dry firing. The only practice I've been getting is when I go out to shoot with Cha-Lee and what I take from each one of those sessions is amazing. I don't think I have the process of evaluating myself down and once it gets pointed out to me during the practice it makes so much sense.

There is a match this Saturday and Sunday. I am still debating if I should go to the one on Saturday. I am on the BOD for Sunday so I'm definitely going to that one. I'm wondering if my time Saturday would be better spend reloading and dry firing. It's so much fun doing these matches and it being winter I'd hate to miss one. We'll see what happens. I am all about making poor choices so i'll probably do the wrong thing.

[CHA-LEE]

Shooting matches is a test of your skills. Practicing is a learning opportunity to improve your skills. Use the club matches to evaluate your skills, but also keep note of the issues you had during the match so you can define a training/practice plan to overcome the issues.

The majority of what I consider needing "Fixed" in my shooting skills came from issues or failures observed during matches I attended. Ultimately we are trying to perfect our match performances so its important to keep your skills training/practice in line with what we are tasked with doing during matches. If you don't come away from a club match with at least a short list of things that could be improved upon then you are not paying enough attention or spending too much time socializing with friends verses analyzing your performance. There is nothing stopping you from taking note of the shooting or movement issues you had during a match, then recreate that scenario in dry fire after the match back at home. One side should feed the other if the process is done properly.

[d_striker]

Nice win on Saturday. Goes to show that steady and clean shooting will beat most people in B class.

[Richc2048]

Thanks Dominic. I was surprised to see that myself.

[Richc2048]

I had a great weekend of shooting two matches last weekend. The weather was a little cold Saturday but nothing that would make me debate whether I should shoot it or not. Sunday’s match was indoors so the weather was not an issue.

I’ve been trying to find the good in the matches I do and log all the things I could have done better and need to include in practice and should have done better because I have been practicing this and I did not come through with the execution.

I was pretty happy with my reloading on Saturday. I made it a point to not look down and although it seemed slow I did it properly so hopefully the technique is solid and now I just need to build speed. The bad part of Saturday was that it took me the first stage to realize that this was a very accuracy biased and I had more Deltas than I could imagine. It was embarrassing. My movement was slow and I can’t blame it on the mud. I need to consistently remind myself to haul ass and act like I mean it. I also find myself not concentrating enough during the walk through to pick up on some of these things. I am doing mediocre at best as far as stage planning and I definitely need to get more focused on it. The way I am doing these walk throughs is not going to help me improve on anything. I know that some of the best matches I’ve had were because I knew everything I was going to do right down to deciding which target to engage first and considering my stance so I could move faster out of it etc. I did not do that Saturday. It was more basic like “I’m gonna shoot (these) then move here and shoot (these)” Nothing specific and I didn’t run it through my head enough to get the confidence when I ran it.

I also has a round that I perceived as a squib or at least a significant decrease in the amount of powder. I stopped myself and zeroed the stage. It was not a squib and simply looking at the target would have determined that a bullet had left the barrel but I was just looking at my gun like what the heck. I’ve recently started using Hornady One Shot and that’s the only thing I could think of. Maybe I need to let the stuff dry a little more before I load it in the case feeder. I don’t know. I had two out of 1000 do this and both sent the bullet out. It just scared me so I stopped.

Sunday’s match was an indoor one which I am part of the BOD. I helped setup all the stages including one I came up with. We had issues in the past of not being ready when the shoot time came up due to the bays being open to the public until 30 minutes before the first shot so I came in early around 3:30pm and built everything so all we had to do was bring in the pre-made props and set it up. It came down to the wire so I did not have chance to walk any of the stages and I was so busy building the stages I didn’t see any of them from a shooters perspective. Just in segments and making sure we didn’t have any shoot-through scenarios.

I now understand what Cha-Lee goes through when he writes of this. I was on a squad with inexperienced people so I ran the clock almost the entire time other than when I shot. A few of the stages were completely done blind other than watching others. I wasn’t in the position to see what the targets looked like from the shooters perspective or anything. It went well but I wish I could have had time to really break down the stage and had time to think about it. I also had a stage where I scratched an itch by my eye real quick when I was up subconsciously pushed my glasses into my face a little too far. They started fogging up as soon as I heard “stand by”. That was a disaster and had 3 mikes. Not bad for index shooting 15yrd targets.

So based on the shooting this weekend I’ve made a little index card with keywords written on it to help me remember things right before I go to the line. They say things like (grip, front sight, reload technique, run stage in head during load and make ready etc…) I am hoping this will help me. I find myself realizing not doing some of these things as soon as I am “unloading to show clear”. If I read this every time I fill my magazines and when I am on deck I should see improvement of things I know to do but don’t sometimes.

I also made myself a classifier log book. I PDF’d all the stage descriptions and added a page where I can enter my score and stuff. My idea is that if I see one I have already done and see that I had no shoots I can keep that in mind and also if I got a perfect score but slow I could step it up. I’ll show you guys at the next match I go to. It’s kinda cool looking.

So to close this long rant: I need to get more serious about critiquing myself and looking for some things that went right that I practiced and I need to be way more focused during the stage walk through and planning. I need to consistently think about shooting it and make sure I can get it as detailed as possible in visualizing how I am going to shoot it and move.

[Glock26Toter]

The walkthrough work you mention is very important. That's where you program EVERYTHING into the subconcious. Take the walkthrough very seriously. Hold your hands exactly like you shoot, reload exactly as you intend to. Some higher level guys can afford to blow some things off in the walkthrough, but for the most part you need to act as if you are shooting. The actual speed isn't nearly as important as the motions. I hold my hands up exactly as they'll grip the gun and give the trigger squeeze as realistic as possible, at the pace I intent to engage. While doing that I visualize exactly how the sight picture will look, down to the peice of tape I intend to hit (or whatever anchor on the target I want to hit).

And for a while, when I was using a hard box for my shooting bag I did the same thing with goals. I printed them and taped them to the inside so I would see them while loading mags and stuff.

All good stuff man. Keep up the good work.

[d_striker]

I also has a round that I perceived as a squib or at least a significant decrease in the amount of powder. I stopped myself and zeroed the stage. It was not a squib and simply looking at the target would have determined that a bullet had left the barrel but I was just looking at my gun like what the heck.

I've had a number of these types of incidents when using certain flake powder. In my instances, I suspected powder bridging leading to an undercharged round. Enough to send the bullet out but not enough to even cycle the slide.

What type of powder are you using? Are you loading on the Dillon yet?

[Richc2048]

Yes. I use titegroup on the 650. I've never had this issue and the only difference is the powder hopper and I'm using Hornady one shot. I'm wondering if it's the one shot.

[CHA-LEE]

One Shot shouldn't affect the powder as long as the inside of the case isn't "Dripping" with it. I use One Shot on all of my brass and have never had a squib or light shot due to it. But then again, my brass isn't dripping wet with it either.

I think a more probable issues is that while reloading you encountered a stoppage that resulted in a short stroking of the downward stroke. when you cleared the stoppage you didn't complete the down stroke and the case under the powder funnel ended up with a partial drop or no drop in powder.

With a progressive press you need to be very diligent about fully stroking it down and up to make sure that all of the stages get their stuff done properly. When I run into a strange stoppage that results in a half stroked handle, I will fix the issue and remove whatever case is under the powder drop/primer position. Doing this ensures that I never have a case with a partial drop or no primer.

[drewbeck]

In the past I've had similar issues occasionally with 9mm when the rotating index stop would be abrupt for some reason whether that reason is stoppage, short stroking, etc. and it would throw a little bit of powder out of the case causing a light charge. Basically if you ever have powder on your shell plate something is happening that shouldn't be and a case is missing a portion of the charge.

I now use a hornady powder cop die, it doesn't tell you how much powder is in a case but makes it really easy to see a variation from one case to the next. It basically measures the volume of charge by the "fullness" of the case with a dipstick so there is noticeable variation due to case wall thickness but a light or double charge would stick out like a sore thumb. I reload sitting down and it's really nice to see the case fill on every case. It may be worth getting to try out and give you some peace of mind

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[d_striker]

Yes. I use titegroup on the 650. I've never had this issue and the only difference is the powder hopper and I'm using Hornady one shot. I'm wondering if it's the one shot.

Titegroup pretty much flows like water in every powder measure I've used. I'm guessing Charlie nailed it.

The important takeaway from his post is to fully stroke it up and down, every time.

[Richc2048]

I guess being Asian I only know the short strokes. Haha.

I'll definitely have to look into it. I know there were a few where the brass came out the hopper upside down but I thought I removed the brass.

And I had a .380 slip through all the way to where I seated the bullet. I kicked it out but I wonder if the next round didn't have a full charge in the powder bar. Hmmm. I might just kick out the next brass after a malfunction. Let it fill with powder and then dump it back.

[drewbeck]

I guess being Asian I only know the short strokes. Haha.

Learning and developing how to properly "stroke it" happens at different times for different people and although we have some experts on the boards that specialize in the art of stroking it, most of us simply learned the technique by trial and error and have since moved on.

I suggest you spend some time reading and the usual "do a search" this type of thing has already been beaten to death. The simple answer is no one can teach you HOW or what the proper stroke is or how it feels but similarly to all things in this sport the only way to get better at it is through self discovery and a dedicated practice. Things like this are best learned and self taught in the privacy of your own reloading room. There you can freely experiment with different techniques, gear, positions etc, and find out what works for you. The best part is it's totally free, just be sure the neighbors can't see you. Only YOU will know when you've got the proper stroke figured out and the experience of having a couple duds along the way is nothing to be overly concerned with, or embarrassed about, and definitely no reason to be alarmed that something is wrong or broken on your machine.

After reading, and watching hours of amateur videos you'll likely find the solution is to add more practice to your daily routine. Continue to develop the "skill" until you can perform it SUBCONSCIOUSLY and if your still having issues, always, always, go back to working on the fundamentals (breathing, consistent grip, grip angle, proper stance, trigger control) The goal through repetition is to get the skill to a place where you are able to perform a perfect stroke on demand and without any conscious thought. The second you start thinking about it, your conscious mind enters the equation and it's gonna be a catastrophic failure of epic proportions. When that happens its best to just move on, act like it didn't happen and keep on protecting your positive self image.

When you see people in videos doing swingers, weak hand only, hosefests, reverse entries and exits, lightning fast transitions, and reloads you once believed to be impossible, you have to understand these are advanced skills that can all be worked on in practice but until you are 100% confident SUBCONSCIOUSLY that your boomstick will go bang bang, on demand each and every time you whip it out you aren't prepared to play games with others. You will find that the use of proper Visualization techniques will also play a vital role in your overall performance, development, and learning. Again, do a search, proper visualization, what to imagine, what not to think about has been beaten to death and debated since the first guy tried to figure out proper stroking technique and its been beaten material ever since.

You're dealing with a stroking issue and the best advice you can get is to dedicate time and energy into figuring out the nuances and intricacies of making YOUR machine run, how it works, and the proper stroke needed for consistent results. What works on any of OUR machines probably won't work for you on yours. Unless there are some groundbreaking advancements in technology over the next couple years, or something weird happens, that will probably be the only machine you ever have so you should learn to take care of it and keep it happy. As long as you take care of and protect it, it will probably keep slinging bullets for as long as you can get up and shoot them, depending on how your wife feels about you, some of those parts could also be passed on to your children and grandchildren. Long after you are gone, friends will probably continue to laugh and tell jokes about how much time you spent maintaining, cleaning, and lubing your machine and how you spent a lifetime trying to achieve that "perfect load."

Learning to properly stroke it, should be a top priority as I guarantee the guys youre watching in the videos that have you rewinding them and leave you wondering how what you just saw is even possible, they have been practicing and have refined the stroke to a science and can instantly tell if something is off or not functioning smoothly with their machine.

The proper stroke doesnt get as much discussion but if the skill is left to chance it can lead to a lot of frustrating and embarrassing moments when you find yourself stopped, confused, looking down at the non functioning boom stick in your hand, and feeling totally deflated that it just went pew, pew, instead of bang, bang

So I started an actual response and it quickly went off the rails, the moral of the story is keep playing with it until it works! This was merely an attempt at humor while showing how we as shooters like to over analyze, and develop complex solutions to relatively simple problems.

Edited January 29, 2015 by drewbeck

[CHA-LEE]

Awesome reply....