Nationals Stage 22 - Do you have to activate the moving hardcover?

[beltjones]

Uh what show me the moving targets

Exactly. The stage description says they are disappearing, but they're not moving targets.

The rule you posted about appearing targets doesn't say a single word about being required to activate them, but thanks for jumping in.

[MarkCO]

The stage description says "PP 1-PP5 will not be visible at rest. PP1 activates swinging hard cover." There are only 4 of them, and they do not move. Poorly worded for sure, but it does NOT say they are disappearing.

[beltjones]

The stage description says "PP 1-PP5 will not be visible at rest. PP1 activates swinging hard cover." There are only 4 of them, and they do not move. Poorly worded for sure, but it does NOT say they are disappearing.

Well that's a good point. What else can "not be visible at rest" mean other than disappearing, though? Every time I've seen that phrase in a stage description it has meant the targets are disappearing.

[terrydoc]

I'd say you answered your own question. The targets don't move, and the no-shoot doesn't cover the targets when set, so none of 9.9 applies. And since they don't move, they don't fall under the definition of a disappearing target:

Disappearing target ..........A target which when activated and after completing its movement is no longer available for engagement.

So that means that they are static targets subject to miss penalties just like a wide-open popper would be.

That would make sense for the first popper, but the stage description says all of them are disappearing.

No the stage description says "PP1- PP5 will not be visible at rest" it doesn't say anything about disappearing targets, what will have happened is the targets will be visible as the HC swings across but when the HC stops the PP if left standing will not be visible.

If the designer has done his work properly the HC will swing for a long time so that the competitor will have plenty of time or He will be standing there for a long time waiting to get the "disappearing "no miss, and his stage time will be very long

[TinCan]

UH where does it say disappearing The rule says revealed. But thanks for playing.

and no one has shown me a moving target yet.

[beltjones]

I'd say you answered your own question. The targets don't move, and the no-shoot doesn't cover the targets when set, so none of 9.9 applies. And since they don't move, they don't fall under the definition of a disappearing target:

Disappearing target ..........A target which when activated and after completing its movement is no longer available for engagement.

So that means that they are static targets subject to miss penalties just like a wide-open popper would be.

That would make sense for the first popper, but the stage description says all of them are disappearing.

No the stage description says "PP1- PP5 will not be visible at rest" it doesn't say anything about disappearing targets, what will have happened is the targets will be visible as the HC swings across but when the HC stops the PP if left standing will not be visible.

If the designer has done his work properly the HC will swing for a long time so that the competitor will have plenty of time or He will be standing there for a long time waiting to get the "disappearing "no miss, and his stage time will be very long

Yeah, that's not how the sport works.

[TinCan]

not visible is the definition of appearing targets

in the rule book that you just read.

again one more time the target is NOT moving the HC is

Edited September 15, 2014 by TinCan

[beltjones]

UH where does it say disappearing The rule says revealed. But thanks for playing.

and no one has shown me a moving target yet.

This is why I will never pay for an arbitration. Nothing you have written has been relevant. The rule you cited is about the requirement for level 2 matches and above to conceal moving targets until they are activated. It has nothing to do with shooters being required to activate anything.

[terrydoc]

of course it does it's about course design and getting shooters to shoot in different arrays and positions.It's not all about gaming stages, people spend a great deal of time designing and setting up stages as soon as someone comes up with a novel idea people try to game it.

[beltjones]

of course it does it's about course design and getting shooters to shoot in different arrays and positions.It's not all about gaming stages, people spend a great deal of time designing and setting up stages as soon as someone comes up with a novel idea people try to game it.

This is USPSA. I don't know how it works in IPSC, but the target doesn't have to disappear before the end of the timed stage in order to be a disappearing target.

[TinCan]

Good god there are no disappearing targets. There are no moving targets. 2.1.8.5. again!! Activation is the last word in the rule.

Edited September 15, 2014 by TinCan

[38SuperDub]

Good god there are no disappearing targets. There are no moving targets. 2.1.8.5. again!!

OK you have the answers to everything answer me this:

You start shooting the steel - hit the first steel and activate - you have a malfunction that takes some time to clear - in doing so the hardcover stops blocking your ability to shoot at the other steel - how is it scored?

By rule the targets are NOT visible with the min. amount of scoring zone presented.

[beltjones]

Good god there are no disappearing targets. There are no moving targets. 2.1.8.5. again!!

2.1.8.5 Appearing scoring targets must be designed and constructed to be obscured to the competitor (during the course of fire) prior to activation.

This is a rule for stage designers. It doesn't say anything about what competitors are required to do.

[TinCan]

4 FTE 4m

[terrydoc]

SuperDub

The problem as I see it is that the targets are not actually moving, so they really don't fit into the scoring of a disappearing target rules ( 9.9). What the designers need to do is have an auxiliary method of restarting the HC, if your scenario occurs .

The targets which if not shot are I'm presuming obscured by the first PP prior to activation of the hard cover.

Edited September 15, 2014 by terrydoc

[beltjones]

SuperDub

The problem as I see it is that the targets are not actually moving, so they really don't fit into the scoring of disappearing target rules ( 9.9). What the designers need to do is have an auxiliary method of restarting the HC, if your scenario occurs .

That would make it interesting.

[38SuperDub]

4 FTE 4m

Then I'm going to call for a calibration saying that I swore I hit all of them - and have the RM shoot it from the EXACT position that I shot it from (with the hard cover over it) - I bet money that he does NOT hit it down - RESHOOT

[sperman]

4.3.1.5.3: Visible evidence of a hit must be present to calibrate the popper. If no evidence is present, the request for calibration shall be denied.

[beltjones]

4.3.1.5.3: Visible evidence of a hit must be present to calibrate the popper. If no evidence is present, the request for calibration shall be denied.

Ok, but what happens if/ when there is a legitimate call for calibration?

[38SuperDub]

So here is an interesting one then - the rulebook says that a min of 50% of the calibration zone MUST be present at SOME POINT during the COF - if one never shoots down the 2nd popper - then that portion of the calibration zone wouldn't be visible on the remaining poppers correct?

[TinCan]

Rule 1.1.5 shoot targets "as and when visible".

[TinCan]

Belt, ( I don't know how to use the quote function) You are shooting to check the target calibration, nothing else shots would be fired through the port.

[beltjones]

Rule 1.1.5 shoot targets "as and when visible".

Again that's part of the instructions for MDs, not for shooters. "must be permitted," not "are required."

What else ya got? Want to post something else incorrectly and out of context?

Do you need me to post the whole rule?

1.1.5. Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot

targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created,and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

[beltjones]

Belt, ( I don't know how to use the quote function) You are shooting to check the target calibration, nothing else shots would be fired through the port.

Right, and the steel hardcover would be at rest, obstructing the targets. Good luck calibrating those.

[motosapiens]

The problem as I see it is that the targets are not actually moving, so they really don't fit into the scoring of a disappearing target rules ( 9.9). What the designers need to do is have an auxiliary method of restarting the HC, if your scenario occurs .

It is true that they don't appear to fit neatly into the rule wording, but I don't think that means they can't be scored like traditional disappearing targets.

There is great desire among some folks to treat the rulebook as if it unambiguously addresses every allowable situation, but I don't believe that is the case. It seems clear to me that there is no substantive difference between targets that are hidden by a moving hardcover and a moving target, so it seems reasonable to me that the same rules could be used.

However...... I'm not the MD or RM, so I'm just going to not sweat it and I'll find out the real story a week from today.