Major vs Minor PF for Rifles

[Dead Buff]

From my experience minor PF outperforms major PF in IPSC rifle shooting. This appears to be because the points difference between the two does not relate to the time gain. In HG competitions it appears to be more fair.

What are your thoughts?

[Dead Buff]

The first option is supposed to read minor and not major - can Mod/Admin please fix....

[Flexmoney]

The first option is supposed to read minor and not major - can Mod/Admin please fix....

how is that?

[Dead Buff]

I spank you very much - Thanx

[kellyn]

I believe that I have the dubious honor of posting the highest score with a major rifle (.260 remington) at the USPSA 3 gun nationals and I tell you it aint worth it.

1) Too expensive compared a .223 so you practice less

2) Most far shots are on steel where pf has no effect

3) since the shots on paper are closer, the advantage of shooting major is diminshed since it is relatively easy to shoot As (if we shot paper at 200-400 yards I may change my mind)

4) No major rifle has a 40 round magazine

5) I came up with the 2 ammo solution heavy slow bullet (140s) for close shots and faster lighter bullets (120s) for farther shots. That was a pain in the ass!

6) The single biggest reason that I did not win that Nationals (other than Bennie is better than me ) is that I thought my cool 140 gr .260 would penetrate some bushes and hit paper targets a few feet behind - shots I never would have tried with a .223. No such luck with a .260 either!

7) spent cases are made of gold compared to a .223 so practice sessions are half spent finding EVERY piece of brass

8) did I mention that it was too expensive.

If the power factor was reduced to accomodate the 6.8 in a standard loading, I may change my mind.

[richardschennberg]

The problem with major/minor for rifle is that it is too easy to shoot almost all A's and minor scores 5 for A's. The only way to encourage major power for rifle would be to award lower points for minor in all scoring zones, such as by scoring a minor A as 4 and a major A as 5.

Richard

http://www.schennberg.com

[George]

Or possibly allowing only one major A hit as minimum rounds required on paper targets by valuing a major paper A hit as 2 regular A's while still requiring 2 hits (any value) for minor rifles. If the single major hit is not an A, it is of course, only one mike. This might just even it out because one round per paper target on hoser stuff (which is most of what rifle paper shooting is about these days) would definitely be a time saver worth going for.

--

Regards,

[Patrick Sweeney]

Which brings me to a basic question concerning any change in the Major/Minor scoring for rifles; are we trying to construct a system that describes the real world, however vaguely? Or are we trying to construct a power factor neutral scoring system, where Major and Minor balance exactly, and thus only the shooters skill is the determining factor?

(Come to think of it, the question applies for all, not just rifle. But this is a rifle forum.)

[MikeFoley]

George, your idea is good in theory, but it gives the advantage to the major if you only have to engage the target once. It actually defeats the issue altogether because you can engage once with either and it is fair, it is where the two shots come into play that cause the issue due to recoil of major power factor rounds. I guess what I am saying is that recoil between targets is a non-issue, recoil between shots is.

I don't pretend to know what is going on in Afghanistan or Iraq, but I do see both 7.62(.308) and 5.56(.223) rifles being used in video and photos. If you are in a 3 foot hallway, the M4 handling is far superior to the M14, but if you are trying to shoot a one shot stop at 300 meters, then the M14 has a huge advantage. I suppose I favor the minor rifle for any application that doesn't require foot pounds of energy at long distances, though my experience is only paper and steel.

One of our elected leaders tried to tell us at 3Gun Nats that the 5.56 wasn't getting the job done. What job? House clearing, or short range sniper detail? The two guns are obviously very different, and shouldn't be treated the same. Major and Minor works the same for rifle as it does for pistol. I thought our problem was in our scoring system, but the debate goes deeper than that. If the stages are setup correctly, there will be B, C, and D hits, which penalize the minor shooter just like a pistol course does.

If we recognize a He-man Division, the participation is low. Why is that? Isn't there a bunch of guys who like .308, .45ACP, and pumpguns? I like them too, but I prefer to play with .223, .40, and a light recoiling semi-auto shotgun.

This is another one of the issues that only gets re-played over and over again, that a membership vote would solve for sure, providing that everyone understood what the scoring limitations are. I have thought I understood this issue, but the more it is talked about, the more confused I get.

[3GunF1Guy]

I think we should change to the multi-gun rules scoring. Here are my reasons.

1. This is a game

2. It sooooo much faster to score and tape the stages. When doing a 3-gun match time is burning everywhere, scoring targets at 100 yds, setting up 1,2,or 3 guns to shoot in a stage, clearing up to 3 guns, you usually have more targets to score in a stage than in a handgun stage and the courses of fire are usually more complex so people like to "look" them over longer before they shoot. When you are trying trying to run just a club match with 6 stages it can take all day. When we do our matches the people who are taping just walk up to the target and if it has two holes in it or one A they tape it and go the next target. With USPSA scoring every target and hit has to be reported and written down on the score sheet, it is a huge time burner. In most multi-gun stages the score keeper can not walk behind and score because there is usually a gun left behind or a gun that has not been cleared pointed up range.

If you want people to get tired of coming to a match and being there all day without as much shooting then stick with USPSA scoring. MGA rules can add as much as 10% time to a day. Use it how you want, more shooting or go home sooner.

Almost every one I know would rather shoot than score. When you go to a Major match that is scored using MGA rules I have never heard anyone say "scoring this way sucks" on the other hand, when using USPSA scoring at a 3-gun match you regularly hear people say that they wish the match would go faster or that major-minor scoring in 3-gun is a waste of time. I do know that some people like USPSA scoring but in reality most don't from what I have seen.

I say lets switch. Thats what I did at our club.

Scott Peterson

[Dead Buff]

Which brings me to a basic question concerning any change in the Major/Minor scoring for rifles; are we trying to construct a system that describes the real world, however vaguely? Or are we trying to construct a power factor neutral scoring system, where Major and Minor balance exactly, and thus only the shooters skill is the determining factor?

(Come to think of it, the question applies for all, not just rifle. But this is a rifle forum.)

I'm talking IPSC here, not 3-gun, but tournaments and rifle matches according to IPSC....

Patrick, you bring up a very valid point. From what I gather IPSC is supposed to be a, however vague, representation of reality in a game/sport environment. This should be reflected in the scoring, meaning all A hits in the same time mean the same thing for min or maj.

A C or D hit with min or maj does make a real difference in real life and must thus in scoring. I just feel that the current scoring does not reward maj C/D hits the same way in Rifle as it does in HG, taking time into consideration. At distances up to 300m a maj hit in C/D will have a more severe effect than a min hit in the same area. Same as with HG out to 50m. (Max distances according to rules). The balance just does not appear to be right judging by the results between Rifle and HG......

[hopalong]

Just change B,and C hits down 1 point for minor and D hits get .5 points Leave A hits the same thus you get 5 points for A hit no matter what, 2 points for B and C hit and .5 for D hit if you shoot minor.

Major will get the 5 point A 4 point B and C hit and 2 points for D hit.

Now you have fairness in scoring vs. speed of the Minor guns.

Before anyone hollers "Foul" I do shoot Major (M1a) but only because I enjoy shooting that gun and am more familiar with it than one of them Matel toys

I really don't care personally about Major Vs. Minor but if they want to offer it I will certainly take it.

The biggest thing I see with Rifle is equipment... There is TONS of stuff made for the AR but finding half the stuff like it for a M1A is almost impossible a little better for AR-10. (30 rnd mags is one example).

my little bit of input....

Hopalong