Google glass, walkthroughs, and IPSC 8.7.2

[Skydiver]

When I was taking the RO class and we still had the combined USPSA/IPSC rule book, under the IPSC 8.7.2 rules, doing a walkthrough with a video camera in hand was against the rules. I didn't really press the instructor at the time on the subject.

Fast foward to the the current IPSC rule book. 8.7.2 now states:

8.7.2 Competitors are prohibited from using any sighting aid (e.g. the whole or part of an imitation or replica firearm, any part of a real firearm including any accessories thereof etc.), except for their own hands, while conducting their inspection ("walkthrough") of a course of fire. Violations will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence (also see Rule 10.5.1).

Is it a valid interpretation that using Google glass is legal since it keeps the hands free and that it'll be hard to construe the glasses an a firearms accessory?

Edited July 1, 2014 by Skydiver

[kneelingatlas]

They're clearly a "sighting aid", the rule says nothing about keeping the hands free, it says explicitly states nothing but your hands.

[Skydiver]

And a person walking around with scotch tape over their non-dominant eye on their shooting glasses is not using a "sighting aid"?

[alma]

They don't seem to be a sighting aid based on the context and example provided: "(e.g. the whole or part of an imitation or replica firearm, any part of a real firearm including any accessories thereof etc.)"

I don't think it's significantly different from using a Gopro or pivothead and there are shooters who go nowhere without them.

[9146gt]

And a person walking around with scotch tape over their non-dominant eye on their shooting glasses is not using a "sighting aid"?

A few years back tape on your glasses was determined to be a sighting aid in PPC....Chap stick on the lens was just dirty glasses.

Tom

[Onagoth]

For clarity, let's look at the rule without the brackets. Sighting aid is not defined in the rule book, but in my view, the parenthetical annotations don't change the overall feel of the rule.

8.7.2 Competitors are prohibited from using any sighting aid except for their own hands, while conducting their inspection ("walkthrough") of a course of fire

Edited July 1, 2014 by Onagoth

[alma]

But you don't actually "sight" through the Google Glass. It's at the top of your field of view.

[kneelingatlas]

But you don't actually "sight" through the Google Glass. It's at the top of your field of view.

:roflol:

[Onagoth]

But you don't actually "sight" through the Google Glass. It's at the top of your field of view.

You may be able to argue semantics...but IMO, the spirit and intent of the rule is clear. You get a walkthrough with your hands, that is it.

I wonder if this has been clarified on GV ?

[Graham Smith]

...doing a walkthrough with a video camera in hand was against the rules. I didn't really press the instructor at the time on the subject.

I would definitely have questioned that. The wording of 8.7.2 in the Feb 2014 book is, "Competitors are prohibited from using any guns or gun replicas as sighting aids while conducting their inspection..." It's hard to see how the definition of "sighting aid" as used in this rule can be expanded to include a camera.

[Onagoth]

...doing a walkthrough with a video camera in hand was against the rules. I didn't really press the instructor at the time on the subject.

I would definitely have questioned that. The wording of 8.7.2 in the Feb 2014 book is, "Competitors are prohibited from using any guns or gun replicas as sighting aids while conducting their inspection..." It's hard to see how the definition of "sighting aid" as used in this rule can be expanded to include a camera.

That's USPSA rules...the OP was about IPSC

Edited July 1, 2014 by Onagoth

[Skydiver]

For nostalgia's sake here is the rule from the "IPSC Handgun Competition Rules USPSA Version January 2004" (aka The Green Book):

8.7.4 Competitors are prohibited from using any sighting aid (e.g. the whole or part of an imitation or replica firearm, any part of a real firearm including any accessories thereof etc.), except for their own hands, while conducting their inspection (“walkthrough”) of a course of fire. Violations will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence (also see Rule 10.5.1).

I didn't press on the video camera back then because there was a much more interesting discussion about walking around with a claw hammer or a cordless drill.

[AWLAZS]

I have seen plenty of folks walk the stages in advance of the match with a video camera.

[remoandiris]

I don't see how Google glass is a sighting aid in this context.

[Graham Smith]

That's USPSA rules...the OP was about IPSC

Missed that, but the rule is still specific enough regarding "...the whole or part of an imitation or replica firearm, any part of a real firearm including any accessories thereof...". A camera is not a part or an imitation of a part of a firearm. If you really stretch it, you may equate looking through the viewfinder to look through a rifle scope, but that's taking it well past reasonable.

[Onagoth]

I just checked GV...Vince confirmed that a hat mounted go-pro cam is considered a sighting aid for the purposes of this rule. I can't see how google glass would be any different.

They also mentioned that the original purpose of a walkthrough was for safety reasons, to allow competitors to see where the targets are so they don't forget them and break 90 going back. It was not initially conceived to allow competitors to get sight pictures or practice running a stage.

The rule was intended to capture things held in the competitors hands because some shooters were doing scary stuff like using frames with optics but no top ends attached. Rather than generate a list of things that can be held vs things that cannot be held, they came up with a rule that only allows a persons hands to be used. He also considered camera footage to be a sighting aid.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Onagoth

[Graham Smith]

I just checked GV...Vince confirmed that a hat mounted go-pro cam is considered a sighting aid for the purposes of this rule. I can't see how google glass would be any different.

And that's the problem with writing rules, you have to be either specific enough to prevent misunderstandings or general enough to include the kitchen sink.

In the rule quoted, examples are given as to what is prohibited. Those examples are specific to firearms, firearm replicas and firearm parts and accessories. Yes, those are just examples and the list not all inclusive, but anything else that might be put into the excluded list should be enough like the examples that a reasonable or knowledgeable person could make the connection.

If you start tossing dissimilar things into the list then all you do is create the kind of problem we see here. A camera, particularly one that is mounted so that it doesn't have to be held, is nothing like a firearm.

And let me add that I have, in the past, walked through stages prior to the start of the match with a video camera. I've mainly done this with stages I have designed, but not exclusively. Since this rule refers to the walk through, it doesn't preclude doing this. It also doesn't preclude taking notes or making sketches or half a dozen other things.

[Onagoth]

I just checked GV...Vince confirmed that a hat mounted go-pro cam is considered a sighting aid for the purposes of this rule. I can't see how google glass would be any different.

And that's the problem with writing rules, you have to be either specific enough to prevent misunderstandings or general enough to include the kitchen sink.

In the rule quoted, examples are given as to what is prohibited. Those examples are specific to firearms, firearm replicas and firearm parts and accessories. Yes, those are just examples and the list not all inclusive, but anything else that might be put into the excluded list should be enough like the examples that a reasonable or knowledgeable person could make the connection.

If you start tossing dissimilar things into the list then all you do is create the kind of problem we see here. A camera, particularly one that is mounted so that it doesn't have to be held, is nothing like a firearm.

And let me add that I have, in the past, walked through stages prior to the start of the match with a video camera. I've mainly done this with stages I have designed, but not exclusively. Since this rule refers to the walk through, it doesn't preclude doing this. It also doesn't preclude taking notes or making sketches or half a dozen other things.

I don't disagree with you. The issue with the hat camera or google glass (during the walkthrough) from what I can tell is that it is recording a sight picture with empty hands (but not held in your hands) and is somehow caught by this rule as a "sighting aid".

Also a problem with a vague rule is that Vince's comments on GV are NOT official rulings, so it is really just guidance. If MDs determine unheld camera's are not sighting aid's then this rule should not come into play until IPSC officially provides a ruling on these types of things.

I still maintain my interpretation that the only appropriate walkthrough is with bare/empty hands and recording a walkthrough is caught by 8.7.2, but definitely I can see your point of view.

If you're recording stages prior to a match starting, I agree this isn't caught since it isn't during the walkthrough

Edited July 2, 2014 by Onagoth

[alma]

No prescription glasses then as those are much more of a sighting ade Google Glass or a mounted GoPro could ever be. You see how stupid that logic is yet?

[Graham Smith]

I can also rely that in general, according to Vince, nothing can be held in the hands during a walkthrough. So in those stages you filmed, if the camera was held in the hands, it was definitely a violation of this rule. The more vague points on GV were around 'sighting aids' that are not held.

I didn't film the stages during the "official" walk through, it was done before the match even started. If the match hasn't started, then it's not really a walk through is it? Now, I'm being a rulebook lawyer here but there's no (USPSA) definition of a walk through other than what's in 3.2.4 and that is done after the WSB is read.

This is one of those picky non-safety rules (which may have once been a safety rule but no longer is) that just ends up in needless debate. We all understand that it means, "You cannot walk around with a gun or something that looks like a gun freaking people out while you take sight pictures." Why complicate it?

Edited July 2, 2014 by Graham Smith

[Onagoth]

I can also rely that in general, according to Vince, nothing can be held in the hands during a walkthrough. So in those stages you filmed, if the camera was held in the hands, it was definitely a violation of this rule. The more vague points on GV were around 'sighting aids' that are not held.

I didn't film the stages during the "official" walk through, it was done before the match even started. If the match hasn't started, then it's not really a walk through is it? Now, I'm being a rulebook lawyer here but there's no (USPSA) definition of a walk through other than what's in 3.2.4 and that is done after the WSB is read.

This is one of those picky non-safety rules (which may have once been a safety rule but no longer is) that just ends up in needless debate. We all understand that it means, "You cannot walk around with a gun or something that looks like a gun freaking people out while you take sight pictures." Why complicate it?

You caught me before I edited my response as i went back and re-read what you wrote. That part you quoted was removed from my edited response

Edited July 2, 2014 by Onagoth

[motosapiens]

I just checked GV...Vince confirmed that a hat mounted go-pro cam is considered a sighting aid for the purposes of this rule. I can't see how google glass would be any different.

That's fine, but that is a Vince rule, and certainly not what a reasonable person would infer from the written rule that is posted above. I think Graham has it right. The intent seems to be to prevent people from walking around with replica guns, not to prevent people from recording something.

To me recording things makes sense and should be encouraged.

[Onagoth]

I just checked GV...Vince confirmed that a hat mounted go-pro cam is considered a sighting aid for the purposes of this rule. I can't see how google glass would be any different.

That's fine, but that is a Vince rule, and certainly not what a reasonable person would infer from the written rule that is posted above. I think Graham has it right. The intent seems to be to prevent people from walking around with replica guns, not to prevent people from recording something.

To me recording things makes sense and should be encouraged.

Well..I won't proclaim to know what a 'reasonable' person would infer.

I might humbly suggest that the definition of 'sighting aid' will not be consistent depending on who you ask, and that consensus amongst competitors and ROs is fairly unlikely.

Until then, guidance has been provided by Vince and it's good enough for me.

Perhaps if that is so 'unreasonable', you can request an official ruling to rules@ipsc.org...until such time, I think competitors, RO's and MD's will just have to agree to disagree.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Onagoth

[Skydiver]

@Onagoth: Thanks for doing the legwork! Thinking back now, I should have posted my question at GV.

[grapemeister]

A few years back Blake Miguez received procedural at a IPSC match in Europe for holding a towel while doing a walk through of a stage. I think it was discussed in a 2010 or 2011 Front Sight issue.