Matthew_Mink Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Anybody know? I'm looking on tweaking my 3 gun gear a little, and I was wondering if one could go shorter than 18" with a full length gas system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Mine runs perfectly. [ link to LARGER image ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted January 5, 2005 Author Share Posted January 5, 2005 Well, that answers that! And in about 2 mins too! I wonder how short one could go with a full length gas system? Anybody know that? I may even consider going down to 16.5" with Wakal's new F2 comp if it had enough gas to work the bolt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 I've built 17" guns with full length gas systems and 14.5" guns with carbine systems. They seem to work with F2 comps Here is my latest project: a 6 pound, 4 ounce (with the PDP4) flattop comp gun: Link to Picture Nothing wrong with a carbine gas tube... Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted January 5, 2005 Author Share Posted January 5, 2005 Yeah, nothing wrong with the carbine gas system, but is has been my experience that recoil is a little sharper. The full length gas systems to me shoot softer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Well, I'm the weirdo who thinks that an 18" barrel full-length gas system feels better with an M16 bolt carrier rather than a standard or light bolt carrier, so I won't say anything at all. That is why I have four AR's set up four different ways Link to Picture This gun (17.5" barrel, pre-F2 installation) is 5 pounds 4 ounces...a full pound lighter than the 16" Cav lower gun in my first post. Of course, the barrel is a bit thinner and the upper is plastic. For the folks who think that light is fast... Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Matt, Man it sure seems like it ought to be the way to go...then I read that nearly ALL the top AR shooters run a 20in. I think Bear (Erik Lund) is about the only guy creeping toward the top with a less than 20in. Of course, that boy is different...in a good way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 What is the goal anyway? Flat shooting? Quick recovery/splits? Being "handy" enough to get around walls and such (to me, that means being able to shoot it, close to, as fast as my pistol...on the "pistol-type" courses that we see out there)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Isn't Taran shooting a rifle shorter than 18" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 I see that Zak is using a "Bear-like" platform? Taran? I sure don't know. I had better go back into "lurk-mode" before I say too much of the wrong stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 I think Taran has been shooting an 18. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chp5 Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Mine runs perfectly. Zak - please give us details of your rifle. What is the barrel length? Did you have to open up the gas ports? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted January 6, 2005 Author Share Posted January 6, 2005 What is the goal anyway? Flat shooting? Quick recovery/splits? Being "handy" enough to get around walls and such (to me, that means being able to shoot it, close to, as fast as my pistol...on the "pistol-type" courses that we see out there)? You pretty much hit the nail on the head and answered your own question. I want my cake and eat it too. An Cy brought up a good question about enlarging the gas port possibility. I had to do that on a FAL carbine, I would assume I would need to do it here. But then again, I think JP makes an adjustable gas regulator for these rifles, so that might be the thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Bear-like? Huh? The pictured upper was built by Paul E. @ MSTN for me. It's a 17" (Krieger turned down) with a rifle length gas system and the lightweight PRI tube. I don't believe he opened the gas port over standard rifle diameter, but I could be wrong. More details here http://AR15.Com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=209756 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Bear-like? Huh? Zak, I believe the reference is pertaining to vertical fore-grip usage. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 yep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 I posted some things I learned at the range including VFG use here: http://gandrtactical.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1290 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Time to jump in... Matt, Most of the "Top" guys use the 20in rifles for two main reasons. First, under the old power factor for minor rifle (160), you had to be very careful with your ammo selection. Many loads would not make the PF. Now that is has been lowered to 150, the carbine length barrels don't have a problem with ammo selection. Second, and the most debated point is, many shooters feel the rifle length gas system is much softer and faster to shoot compared to the shorter carbine gas system. I won't get into the whole issue, but my quick take on the matter is if your running a good compensator, you won't notice the difference. I also think the weight of a 20 vs. 16 has something to do with it being softer. Zak has kinda blended the best of both worlds by having a rifle length gas system with a cut down barrel. This past year I switched to an 18" barrel, but only because I couldn't get the profile I wanted in a stainless steel 16" barrel without paying $500 for it. Taran is also using an 18" barreled setup. His rifle is also made by MSTN. While many people are quick to jump on the "Vertical foregrips are crutches only used by posers" bandwagon, they will definitely improve your shooting, IF you know how to use them properly (most people don't.) To paraphrase Kelly Neal, I hope all my competitors think VFG's are a joke and never use them. Here's a well worn pic of my rifle. I need to take some new ones, I've changed it around a little. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 I taken scads of M16A1 bone-stock rifles and cut them down to 16.5" for police departments. All with pencil-barrel full-length gas systems. Never had one fail to function, even when left in the truck overnight in the winter. (With ammo.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted January 6, 2005 Author Share Posted January 6, 2005 Zak, I saw your post on AR-15.com the other day about your range experiences with your 4 rifles and the various tests, very enlightening. I've never wanted a VFG on my rifles. I have shot them on other peoples rifles, and they were ok, but I never thought I would need one. Eric, that's another point I forgot about. Since USPSA lowered the rifle pf for minor, I'm indeed not worried about not making it. I reload anyway, I can always add powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 The problem with Erik is that he is too good a shooter to discount as a poseur. But I still dislike the VFG, although I will admit it does have some tactical advantages as opposed to competitive ones. You obviously do not need one to win. Conversely, you will not lose because you have a "dildoo" (in the words of Bennie Hill) on your rifle either. You'll just take a little grief. I also have an 18 in barrelled upper (from Accuracy Speaks) with a full length gas system and really like it. I also like my 20 from JP. Having just seen Matt Burkett smoke everybody (including myself, I guess I need to watch that DVD more closely ) at a local match with a 16 incher with a JP adjustable gas system, I have trouble saying that a TUNED 16 bucks too much. Will that be the winning combo? Perhaps, but (with all respect to Matt and Erik) Voigt, Miculek, etc. have not jumped on the shorty bandwagon and they do just fine. But I still want all my competitors to have a 16 (or better yet a 14.5 or even 10.5), with a scope mounted on the carry handle, with a foregrip, laser, barrel mounted bipod, and a bayonet. One final note, I have won stages with an iron sighted FAL in .260 and .308 against the big dogs shooting open guns HOW ???? By activating the trigger while the sights were on the target and doing it fast. That's more important than 2, 3 or 4 inches of barrel or whether you have a VFG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 activating the trigger while the sights were on the target and doing it fast..... [is] more important than [today's gadget d'jour] Well said. Now all I gotta do is figure out how to *do* it ;-) Bruce (shameless buyer of gadgets) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chp5 Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 activating the trigger while the sights were on the target and doing it fast..... [is] more important than [today's gadget d'jour] Gadgets won't improve my game? Damn - I now need a new strategy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 WRT the VFG, it was faster for me than grasping the end of a rifle-length tube when stage had more target re-engagement vs. target transitions. Also, I'm pretty sure XM193 will make 170PF from even a 16" barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingerjg Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Gadgets won't improve my game? Damn - I now need a new strategy! but with lots of cool gadgets you'll look good doing it. thats my story and im sticking to it. I recently added a VFG to my 16" M4. I do plan on, in the future, building a new ar for 3gun using a 18" barrel and full length gas system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now