Shooting on the move in USPSA production. When?

[BeerBaron]

Just an example -

During your walk through it takes you 15 seconds to get line of sight on each target = 15 sec

And it takes you 1 second to get into your 4 designated shooting positions = 4 sec

And it takes you 1 second to get out of your 4 designated shooting positions = 4 sec

And you know your splits are a .25 second for every round fired (32 rounds) = 8 sec

And you know your reloads are 2 seconds for 4 reloads each in the CoF = 8 sec

Total consecutive time 39 sec

So where are your possible time saving efficiencies?

Reload while moving, you save time, possibly 8 sec

Shoot while entering / leaving positions, you save time, possibly 8 sec

If you can hit any A zones on the move, you save time, possibly .25 sec per

The more shots you can take on the move the more you save.

that's a great calculator to use but to my mind it's not taking into account a crucial factor (certainly for me, and I think many others too).

I can run flat out much faster that I can move whilst shooting. the fastest I can move and shoot at the same time with any kind of accuracy at all is a fast walk at best. even a top shooter is not much faster than that (unless we're talking 3 yard targets of course). so in part of that stage plan if I shoot a few on the move it may save me some planted shooting time. but my running time may blow out from 15 sec to 20sec or more. the reloads on the move are a no brainer, they should be able to be accomplished within the first 2 steps. and for guys with good gun handling they can be finished as they take the first step so it doesn't slow down their running at all.

funnily enough the more agile you are (faster runner) the less opportunity you probably have to shoot on the move as you can save time by being super fast from position to position. for slower guys the difference between their flat out run and their 'move and shoot' speed may not be so different so it may be beneficial for those guys.

I'm with ya bro, but put logic aside and run your own practical analysis. I was surprised by my results. You may be too.

I have done exactly that. if you read back through the thread a bit I posted my experience. I thought in your test it was a little bit biased towards shooting on the move due to the challenge design since you have to run to the fault line to shoot the stop plate. that means since you have to go down that path anyway it will of course be quicker to shoot it on the move. if you remove that requirement a good shooter would be able to shoot that stop plate way back up range. sure he may have to shoot a bit slower to hit the 8 targets and plate, but he can do it all from one position.

I did a test which was a couple of close targets, then a corridor with targets left and right. there was a group where 3 targets were fairly close together on the left, then a gap of a few meters then another 3 off to the right. I could start, hose the 2 close targets, haul arse to a first position, shoot the 3 targets as quick as possible, turn and address the final 3 on the right from distance. Or, I could hose the close targets, start running a path down the middle. engage the 3 left targets as a i get close, continue past and closer to the 3 right and engage them.

so advantages of shooting on the move were getting closer to each of the target arrays. on the downside you are shooting while moving so accuracy wasn't always spot on. I found when running I occasionally had one shot go high over the top target on the left. in that array there was a typical high target, no shoot partially obscuring it and then low target, the third target was off to the right about 1 meter apart. i occasionally tagged the no shoot too.

Shooting it less on the move meant I spent a little more time on each shot and got better hits. time was fairly close to both methods. from memory shooting it on the move was a little quicker and I got great hits on the final array (all open targets and I could run them down quite close). shooting it from standing I got better points over all (i didn't tag the noie or have a mike on any runs) and time was fairly close.

As you did say this is anecdotal and it varies a lot depending on things like:

how fast can you run flat out vs how fast you can run/walk and still shoot accurately enough. (As I said if you are a really fast mover the chances are you can move much faster not shooting than you can shooting.)

how well you can shoot on the move

how well you can shoot at distance. sometimes you can stay back and shoot more targets at distance and save time and movement that way.

what the stage design favours (this is probably the biggest determining factor).

I agree it's an important skill and something that should be practiced. but I've found that the opportunities for actually running and shooting at the same time are a lot less than most would initially think. watch vids of guys like eric graufel shooting Level 4s. They do shoot coming into and out of positions and whilst moving their body, but not really shooting on the run much at all. mostly hauling into a position, shoot fast, get out and move on to the next position.

I think we both agree it will be a slightly different matrix for everyone.

[BeerBaron]

Many years ago, I was practicing with Don Golembieki (GM) of Kodiak Precision at Rio Salado. He set up a row of targets about 15 yards from two lateral boxes.

The matches back then had a lot of opportunities for shooting on the move. It was a skill every GM had to have to compete.

I timed his runs. First starting in one box and running to the other box v. starting in one box and shooting on the move to the other box. His shooting on the move was always faster than one box-run to-other box.

Having attended many National and Area 2 matches since then, I have rarely seen stages where shooting on the move was an advantage. Max M did a YouTube while with the AMU on shooting on the move. HIs bottom line was in a risk/reward situation was to ensure there was a reward and not to take risks where the outcome was not a reward.

A few years later, I was shooting at Taran's range. I referred to his movement as a California rolling stop, he was rolling into the port and rolling out of while shooting.

If you have older FrontSight magazines, there were two 'Tips from the Grand Masters" articles describing these techniques.

Shooting is a perishable skill. I did a lot of .22 work shooting on the move. I got ok at it, but rarely used it in either major or local matches. I no longer practice it.

I had more than a few ROs talk about how quickly Mike Voigt entered and left a port/shooting position.

The conclusion is do you want to devote practice to a skill you might not use very much instead of developing critical skills???

Personally, I took Matt Burkett's advice and starting extending the distances in my practices. When I could practice a lot, I shot most of my practice at 30-40 yards. This improved my accuracy at all distances.

this make a lot of sense to me. and I agree modern matches (lots of small ports to shoot through, hard cover etc) don't generally provide a lot of opportunity for 'running and gunning'. plus I shoot IPSC so we only use the turtle targets and it seems we generally have them at longer distances than many USPSA courses.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

I'm with ya bro, but put logic aside and run your own practical analysis. I was surprised by my results. You may be too.

I have done exactly that. if you read back through the thread a bit I posted my experience. I thought in your test it was a little bit biased towards shooting on the move due to the challenge design

I think we both agree it will be a slightly different matrix for everyone.

Yes my intent was to mimic a stage where the final target was not available from the first position. I totally agree that remaining static and using good marksmanship would be best. But we have both shot plenty of stages where the design forces you to cover some ground for that last target. I'm simply looking at shoot run shoot vs. closing the distance while engaging targets.

The only point I wanted to make is that you, me, and a super squadder are each gonna get different results, and those results will change for each of us over time. Rather than rely on someone's else's G2 a guy will be well off to compare his own results.

I suspect we are on the same page, forum posts are about the hardest way on earth for me to make sense, about like texting with my 14 year old

[motosapiens]

The conclusion is do you want to devote practice to a skill you might not use very much instead of developing critical skills???

I think practicing shooting on the move has benefits in other situations too. Getting used to the sights moving around has really helped my shotcalling and it has made shooting into and out of positions pretty easy and natural. I wouldn't neglect other skills, but spending 5-10 mins every 2nd or 3rd practice session (dry or live fire) shooting on the move has been very beneficial to me sight awareness and speed.

[Ben Stoeger]

The conclusion is do you want to devote practice to a skill you might not use very much instead of developing critical skills???

I think practicing shooting on the move has benefits in other situations too. Getting used to the sights moving around has really helped my shotcalling and it has made shooting into and out of positions pretty easy and natural. I wouldn't neglect other skills, but spending 5-10 mins every 2nd or 3rd practice session (dry or live fire) shooting on the move has been very beneficial to me sight awareness and speed.

Excellent point.

[ttownracer]

Just an example -

During your walk through it takes you 15 seconds to get line of sight on each target = 15 sec

And it takes you 1 second to get into your 4 designated shooting positions = 4 sec

And it takes you 1 second to get out of your 4 designated shooting positions = 4 sec

And you know your splits are a .25 second for every round fired (32 rounds) = 8 sec

And you know your reloads are 2 seconds for 4 reloads each in the CoF = 8 sec

Total consecutive time 39 sec

So where are your possible time saving efficiencies?

Reload while moving, you save time, possibly 8 sec

Shoot while entering / leaving positions, you save time, possibly 8 sec

If you can hit any A zones on the move, you save time, possibly .25 sec per

The more shots you can take on the move the more you save.

Thank you for posting this example. For less experienced and skilled shooters like myself, helpful to see an example of breaking down a stage in order to think about options. Would like to find other examples of the planning and breakdowns if anyone could point me towards additional resources.

[BeerBaron]

Yes my intent was to mimic a stage where the final target was not available from the first position. I totally agree that remaining static and using good marksmanship would be best. But we have both shot plenty of stages where the design forces you to cover some ground for that last target. I'm simply looking at shoot run shoot vs. closing the distance while engaging targets.

The only point I wanted to make is that you, me, and a super squadder are each gonna get different results, and those results will change for each of us over time. Rather than rely on someone's else's G2 a guy will be well off to compare his own results.

I suspect we are on the same page, forum posts are about the hardest way on earth for me to make sense, about like texting with my 14 year old

Yep, I think we are 100% on the same page. I totally agree it's different for everyone and everyone should at least do a little work to get some anecdotal evidence on what works for them at this particular stage in their development.

I see a new shooter who is fit and can move fast. for him he's better to run like hell, stop, shoot, run like hell again. when he tries to shoot on the move he basically comes to a standstill but the accuracy suffers and he takes longer on his shots.

for a more experience guy who is comfortable seeing the sights move suddenly it's not so clear cut.

for myself? I am just thankful none of these targets are shooting back!!!