Popper requires multiple hits before falling: REF or not? Split from a

[whitedog]

My belief, and was taught by Jay, was that range equipment had to fail to be a REF. That said...

If you nail a popper in the "drop zone" and it don't fall, then hit it again and still stands, there's a rule in place for that. Call for calibration. Simple

Now if you chose to shoot it eleventy times and it finally falls, there's a rule in place for that too.

Asking for a calibration or arguing the score after the plate falls is supported no where in the rules. In fact it's actually not allowed per the rules.

No tangents, no clamshells, no cable issues. Just based on a popper question. Period.

If you chose to keep shooting it, you own the score regardless of anything. Being a "nice guy" helps no one and makes RO's now partial to a particular shooter...not cool.

[motosapiens]

So tell me, which rule would you use to support the reshoot? I can't find one, and I won't make it up, because "it seems like the right thing to do....."

Also -- clamshells aren't poppers -- different animals. I can find a rule to support a reshoot for a malfunctioning clamshell pretty easily in section 4.6.......

In reviewing section 4.6 I can't come up with anything that would allow me to order a reshoot for a popper that was shot down, and subsequently needed to be adjusted. This is also why I prefer it if sufficient range staff exists to reset poppers -- that's the best way I've found to have the staff manage their steel. If they reset it, they know what shape it's in, when a piece might need an adjustment and subsequent recalibration. I've always encouraged them to manage their steel -- I'm always happy to shoot a couple more rounds to ensure that it's properly calibrated following any adjustments..... :D

I don't really see the difference between applying 4.6 to a malfunctioning popper vs a malfunctioning clamshell.

I think it's a mistake to expect every possible situation to be covered by rulebook. REF is REF.

[motosapiens]

I understand the "local interpretation when it's just a club match" position completely, and I think the "coolest" thing to do in a club match is grant a reshoot due to REF if you find the popper was set too heavy. BUT...each rule in the book was created to solve some problem. Shooting a popper until it is down, and THEN claiming it was too heavy is a problem. Especially if the shooter claims that only after crash n burning on the stage, but not if it otherwise was a good run. That introduces ambiguity and judgement calls where there don't need to be any. Sticking to the rule of "if shooter fells plate, no calibration/reshoot" reduces ambiguity & judgement calls. In addition, the rule is crystal clear.

I wish SCOTUS and our Fed legislature would stick to literal interpretations of the Constitution, and not "create wiggle room". I damn sure see more problems with creative interpretations than with literal interpretation.

That's not a local rule at all. IMHO (and apparently in practice at national championship matches), the rules give the RO and RM some latitude to ensure the match is run fairly.

If the shooter simply claims the popper was set too heavy, you can say 'too bad, no calibration since you shot it down', and move on to the next shooter.

OTOH, if you examine the popper, and find that it was obviously set wrong somehow, and then you adjust it significantly, or you instruct the other RO's to change the way they have been setting it (with a forward-faller, for example) you have changed the presentation of the stage, and a re-shoot *may* be justified. This is a VERY different situation than the one you describe.

I don't think any reasonable person is suggesting that people should be able to call for calibration after having to use more than 1 shot to drop a popper. I'm saying that if the popper (or any other prop or piece of equipment) was OBVIOUSLY improperly adjusted, *and you change that adjustment to fix it*, a re-shoot for someone who was affected by the maladjustment *may* be justified.

You are living in a fantasy world if you don't think there will always be ambiguity and judgement calls. The key is to apply the rules consistently and fairly in those cases.

IMHO you cannot apply rules consistently and fairly if you are making calls based soley on judgement... Because it became a judgement call and that is open for interpretation by different people. The rule is set as it is for just this reason, it makes it equal for everyone. If GrandMaster Joe shoots a popper 7 times before it falls and D shooter Jane does the same thing, they both own the score. Equally. If it becomes a judgement call from the R.O., there is absolutely no guarantee that D shooter Jane gets the same call as GrandMaster Joe.

*Every* rule call is based solely on judgement. That's why we have human RO's that can think instead of RO robots.

If either GM joe or D jane has trouble with a popper, and inspection proves that the popper is drastically out of adjusment or broken and must be replaced or adjusted for the match to continue, then the call would be the same.

[motosapiens]

Asking for a calibration or arguing the score after the plate falls is supported no where in the rules.

I totally agree. The shooter would not have any grounds to ask for anything. However if the RO inspects the equipment and determines there is a problem that must be fixed, that is a different story.

[glandry51]

I understand the "local interpretation when it's just a club match" position completely, and I think the "coolest" thing to do in a club match is grant a reshoot due to REF if you find the popper was set too heavy. BUT...each rule in the book was created to solve some problem. Shooting a popper until it is down, and THEN claiming it was too heavy is a problem. Especially if the shooter claims that only after crash n burning on the stage, but not if it otherwise was a good run. That introduces ambiguity and judgement calls where there don't need to be any. Sticking to the rule of "if shooter fells plate, no calibration/reshoot" reduces ambiguity & judgement calls. In addition, the rule is crystal clear.

I wish SCOTUS and our Fed legislature would stick to literal interpretations of the Constitution, and not "create wiggle room". I damn sure see more problems with creative interpretations than with literal interpretation.

That's not a local rule at all. IMHO (and apparently in practice at national championship matches), the rules give the RO and RM some latitude to ensure the match is run fairly.

If the shooter simply claims the popper was set too heavy, you can say 'too bad, no calibration since you shot it down', and move on to the next shooter.

OTOH, if you examine the popper, and find that it was obviously set wrong somehow, and then you adjust it significantly, or you instruct the other RO's to change the way they have been setting it (with a forward-faller, for example) you have changed the presentation of the stage, and a re-shoot *may* be justified. This is a VERY different situation than the one you describe.

I don't think any reasonable person is suggesting that people should be able to call for calibration after having to use more than 1 shot to drop a popper. I'm saying that if the popper (or any other prop or piece of equipment) was OBVIOUSLY improperly adjusted, *and you change that adjustment to fix it*, a re-shoot for someone who was affected by the maladjustment *may* be justified.

You are living in a fantasy world if you don't think there will always be ambiguity and judgement calls. The key is to apply the rules consistently and fairly in those cases.

IMHO you cannot apply rules consistently and fairly if you are making calls based soley on judgement... Because it became a judgement call and that is open for interpretation by different people. The rule is set as it is for just this reason, it makes it equal for everyone. If GrandMaster Joe shoots a popper 7 times before it falls and D shooter Jane does the same thing, they both own the score. Equally. If it becomes a judgement call from the R.O., there is absolutely no guarantee that D shooter Jane gets the same call as GrandMaster Joe.

*Every* rule call is based solely on judgement. That's why we have human RO's that can think instead of RO robots.

If either GM joe or D jane has trouble with a popper, and inspection proves that the popper is drastically out of adjusment or broken and must be replaced or adjusted for the match to continue, then the call would be the same.

I cannot agree with that at all. If you shoot a popper until it falls, you own the score per rules. Not a judgement call. You drop a gun during a COF, DQ. Not a judgement call. Rack your slide to fix a malfunction with your finger in the triggerguard, DQ. Not a judgement call.

Now trying to explain what constitutes a popper "drastically out of adjustment", that is a judgement call. And there is no rule to support making this call if the shooter has put the popper down. It is not hiding behind the rules, it is enforcing the rules evenly and to the letter so that all shooters are treated the same. If you are going to play this game, KNOW THE RULES. It is not the job of an RO to stop a COF b/c he THINKS that a popper is out of calibration. It is on the shooter to know the rule, stop shooting the popper, keep going, and ask for calibration after. That is how the rules read, enforce them as such.

[motosapiens]

I understand the "local interpretation when it's just a club match" position completely, and I think the "coolest" thing to do in a club match is grant a reshoot due to REF if you find the popper was set too heavy. BUT...each rule in the book was created to solve some problem. Shooting a popper until it is down, and THEN claiming it was too heavy is a problem. Especially if the shooter claims that only after crash n burning on the stage, but not if it otherwise was a good run. That introduces ambiguity and judgement calls where there don't need to be any. Sticking to the rule of "if shooter fells plate, no calibration/reshoot" reduces ambiguity & judgement calls. In addition, the rule is crystal clear.

I wish SCOTUS and our Fed legislature would stick to literal interpretations of the Constitution, and not "create wiggle room". I damn sure see more problems with creative interpretations than with literal interpretation.

That's not a local rule at all. IMHO (and apparently in practice at national championship matches), the rules give the RO and RM some latitude to ensure the match is run fairly.

If the shooter simply claims the popper was set too heavy, you can say 'too bad, no calibration since you shot it down', and move on to the next shooter.

OTOH, if you examine the popper, and find that it was obviously set wrong somehow, and then you adjust it significantly, or you instruct the other RO's to change the way they have been setting it (with a forward-faller, for example) you have changed the presentation of the stage, and a re-shoot *may* be justified. This is a VERY different situation than the one you describe.

I don't think any reasonable person is suggesting that people should be able to call for calibration after having to use more than 1 shot to drop a popper. I'm saying that if the popper (or any other prop or piece of equipment) was OBVIOUSLY improperly adjusted, *and you change that adjustment to fix it*, a re-shoot for someone who was affected by the maladjustment *may* be justified.

You are living in a fantasy world if you don't think there will always be ambiguity and judgement calls. The key is to apply the rules consistently and fairly in those cases.

IMHO you cannot apply rules consistently and fairly if you are making calls based soley on judgement... Because it became a judgement call and that is open for interpretation by different people. The rule is set as it is for just this reason, it makes it equal for everyone. If GrandMaster Joe shoots a popper 7 times before it falls and D shooter Jane does the same thing, they both own the score. Equally. If it becomes a judgement call from the R.O., there is absolutely no guarantee that D shooter Jane gets the same call as GrandMaster Joe.

*Every* rule call is based solely on judgement. That's why we have human RO's that can think instead of RO robots.

If either GM joe or D jane has trouble with a popper, and inspection proves that the popper is drastically out of adjusment or broken and must be replaced or adjusted for the match to continue, then the call would be the same.

I cannot agree with that at all. If you shoot a popper until it falls, you own the score per rules. Not a judgement call. You drop a gun during a COF, DQ. Not a judgement call. Rack your slide to fix a malfunction with your finger in the triggerguard, DQ. Not a judgement call.

Now trying to explain what constitutes a popper "drastically out of adjustment", that is a judgement call. And there is no rule to support making this call if the shooter has put the popper down. It is not hiding behind the rules, it is enforcing the rules evenly and to the letter so that all shooters are treated the same. If you are going to play this game, KNOW THE RULES. It is not the job of an RO to stop a COF b/c he THINKS that a popper is out of calibration. It is on the shooter to know the rule, stop shooting the popper, keep going, and ask for calibration after. That is how the rules read, enforce them as such.

Fair enough, there are a handful of situations that are not judgement calls, but I think you have incorrectly interpreted the rules regarding REF and also regarding the ability of the RO and/or RM to run a fair and equitable match. Note that this is not really about calibration at all, so I don't believe it is correct to hide behind that rule and act as if it covers every possible situation.

Tell me, what do you do in other situations where no specific rule exists, like a target blows loose during the COF? Or a dog runs down the berm downrange of the shooter? (stuff that I have seen happen this year).

[Nik Habicht]

So tell me, which rule would you use to support the reshoot? I can't find one, and I won't make it up, because "it seems like the right thing to do....."

Also -- clamshells aren't poppers -- different animals. I can find a rule to support a reshoot for a malfunctioning clamshell pretty easily in section 4.6.......

In reviewing section 4.6 I can't come up with anything that would allow me to order a reshoot for a popper that was shot down, and subsequently needed to be adjusted. This is also why I prefer it if sufficient range staff exists to reset poppers -- that's the best way I've found to have the staff manage their steel. If they reset it, they know what shape it's in, when a piece might need an adjustment and subsequent recalibration. I've always encouraged them to manage their steel -- I'm always happy to shoot a couple more rounds to ensure that it's properly calibrated following any adjustments..... :D

I don't really see the difference between applying 4.6 to a malfunctioning popper vs a malfunctioning clamshell.

I think it's a mistake to expect every possible situation to be covered by rulebook. REF is REF.

That's a little glib. I strongly recommend that you reach out to your RMI for clarification -- as their teaching of the material may be substantially different from your interpretation.....

And while I agree that the rulebook can't address every possible situation you might encounter at a match, it does specifically address this one, by mentioning certain popper scenarios in section 4.6, and addressing others in Appendix C1.....

[motosapiens]

That's a little glib. I strongly recommend that you reach out to your RMI for clarification -- as their teaching of the material may be substantially different from your interpretation.....

And while I agree that the rulebook can't address every possible situation you might encounter at a match, it does specifically address this one, by mentioning certain popper scenarios in section 4.6, and addressing others in Appendix C1.....

The rules you cite about popper calibration do NOT specifically address this issue. There are other things that can go wrong with a popper besides the routine calibration issue that is well-covered in appendix C.

[jester121]

Tell me, what do you do in other situations where no specific rule exists, like a target blows loose during the COF? Or a dog runs down the berm downrange of the shooter? (stuff that I have seen happen this year).

Both are specifically covered in 8.6.4, external interference/interference.

[Sarge]

Actually 8.6.4 does not pertain to either. It talks about "offering" reshoots.

4.6.1 Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of

paper targets.

As for a dog downrange "STOP". mandatory reshoot

[Nik Habicht]

That's a little glib. I strongly recommend that you reach out to your RMI for clarification -- as their teaching of the material may be substantially different from your interpretation.....

And while I agree that the rulebook can't address every possible situation you might encounter at a match, it does specifically address this one, by mentioning certain popper scenarios in section 4.6, and addressing others in Appendix C1.....

The rules you cite about popper calibration do NOT specifically address this issue. There are other things that can go wrong with a popper besides the routine calibration issue that is well-covered in appendix C.

Really? OK, from the top:

4.6 Range Equipment Failure and Other Issues

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of props such as openings, ports, and barriers. 4.6.1.1 The declaration and/or use of any loaded (see Appendix A3) or unloaded firearm as “range equipment” is prohibited.

Steel is mentioned twice in 4.6.1 -- obviously since the competitor is shooting at the steel, neither of those occurred.....

4.6.1.1 doesn't apply

4.6.2 A competitor who is unable to complete a course of fire due to range equipment failure, or if a metal or moving target was not reset prior to his attempt at a course of fire, must be required to reshoot the course of fire after corrective actions have been taken.

4.6.3 Chronic malfunction of equipment in a course of fire may result in the removal of that stage from the match results (see Rule 2.3.4).

The competitor takes multiple shots and knocks the popper down -- ergo he is able to finish the COF. Clearly the steel was reset prior to his attempt, or he would not have been able to engage it.....

Since in the scenario described he's the first competitor to encounter such difficulty, 4.6.3 does not apply. That concludes the Range Equipment Failure Section of the rulebook.

9.6.4 Any challenge to a score or penalty must be appealed to the Range Officer by the competitor (or his delegate) prior to the subject target being painted, patched, or reset, failing which such challenges will not be accepted.

9.6.5 In the event that the Range Officer upholds the original score or penalty and the competitor is dissatisfied, he may appeal to the Chief Range Officer and then to the Range Master for a ruling.

9.6.6 The Range Master’s ruling will be final. No further appeals are allowed with respect to the scoring decision.

Needs no further explanation.

Calibration Challenges

6. If, during a course of fire, a popper does not fall when hit, a competitor has three alternatives:

a. The popper is shot again until it falls. In this case, no further action is required and the course of fire is scored “as shot”.

b. The popper is left standing but the competitor does not challenge the calibration. In this case, no further action is required and the course of fire is scored “as shot”, with the subject popper scored as a miss.

c. The popper is left standing and the competitor challenges the calibra-tion. In this case, the popper and the surrounding area on which it stands must not be touched or interfered with by any person. If a Match Official violates this rule, the competitor must reshoot the course of fire. If the competitor or any other person violates this rule, the popper will be scored as a miss and the rest of the course of fire will be scored “as shot”. If the popper falls for any non-interference reason (e.g. wind action), before it can be calibrated, Section 4.6 will apply and a reshoot must be ordered.

7. In the absence of any interference, or problem with a target mechanism, a calibration officer must conduct a calibration test of the subject popper (when required under 6c above), from as near as possible to the point from where the competitor shot the popper. (See rule 4.3.1.5 for Poppers partially hidden by cover).The following will apply:

a. If the first shot by the calibration officer hits on or below the calibration zone and the popper falls, the popper is deemed to be properly calibrated, and it will be scored as a miss.

b. If the first shot fired by the calibration officer hits the popper anywhere on its frontal surface and the popper does not fall, the calibration test is deemed to have failed and the competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire, once the popper has been recalibrated.

c. If the first shot fired by the calibration officer hits above the calibration zone, the calibration test is deemed to have failed and the competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire once the Popper has been recalibrated.

d. If the first shot fired by the calibration officer misses the popper altogether, another shot must be fired until one of 7a. 7b or 7c occurs. 8. Note that authorized metal plates are not subject to calibration or challenge (see Rule 4.3.1.6).

If the competitor's first hit on steel does not knock down the popper, the competitor chooses what happens next. If the popper is shot down, the rulebook is clear that the stage is scored as shot.

If you were to decide to arbitrarily, and in violation of these rules to issue a reshoot to a competitor who you felt had experienced range equipment failure because you felt compelled to adjust the popper after the run, there would be consequences to such an action. In the event of a third party appeal to arbitration, you would have put the RM in a difficult position -- I'm not sure the RM could keep the stage in the match.

Because reshoots have the potential to affect every other competitor in a division, I request that scores be preserved and that I be consulted before any reshoot is ordered for a competitor at matches where I function as range master.

Again, I urge you to discuss the situation with your RMI if you are unwilling to take our word for it......

[Nik Habicht]

And routine calibration of poppers is only one of the things covered in Appendix C; the other is how to handle a piece of steel that fails to fall to the first round......

[whitedog]

Not to be a jack wagon....but.

If some are stating a problem with a popper, not calibration, would it not have been seen during the reset process? And if it was broke or whatever why was it not addressed then? I can't see how something happened to the popper between reset and make ready.

Again though, if the shooter knocks it down the score stands. Bending rules helps no one.

[motosapiens]

Not to be a jack wagon....but.

If some are stating a problem with a popper, not calibration, would it not have been seen during the reset process? And if it was broke or whatever why was it not addressed then? I can't see how something happened to the popper between reset and make ready.

Again though, if the shooter knocks it down the score stands. Bending rules helps no one.

It's not bending rules, but I appreciate your input. You make some decent points, but surely you have been shooting long enough to know that occasionally the reset process is not perfect, and mistakes are made, especially at a local match where you may have shooters that aren't familiar with our props and props that only work when set a particular way.

When I have seen this problem (about 3 occasions), it has been due to one of 2 things:

1. forward falling popper that was set incorrectly.

2. first squad at a local match when popper was set up incorrectly and never tested.

I hope everyone making silly talk about 'bending the rules' is not knuckle-calibrating their poppers at their matches, because the rules are quite clear that you need to shoot them with ammo that's been chrono'd at the appropriate PF. If you're not doing that, you're not just bending the rules, you're totally ignoring them out of laziness.

[motosapiens]

As for a dog downrange "STOP". mandatory reshoot

What rule specifically covers that? Or are you 'bending' rules again. Was it you that already admitted to ignoring the calibration rules for poppers?

[motosapiens]

If you were to decide to arbitrarily, and in violation of these rules to issue a reshoot to a competitor who you felt had experienced range equipment failure because you felt compelled to adjust the popper after the run, there would be consequences to such an action. In the event of a third party appeal to arbitration, you would have put the RM in a difficult position -- I'm not sure the RM could keep the stage in the match.

Because reshoots have the potential to affect every other competitor in a division, I request that scores be preserved and that I be consulted before any reshoot is ordered for a competitor at matches where I function as range master.

Again, I urge you to discuss the situation with your RMI if you are unwilling to take our word for it......

First off, I don't believe it's arbitrary, or in violation of any rules.

Second, earlier you posted that this would be an RM scoring decision and not subject to arbitration. Now you're saying that it wouldn't be a scoring decision? and subject to 3rd party arbitration? Ok.

I don't see how it would be different if you change the presentation of a target to fix a problem AFTER someone has shot it.

[Sarge]

As for a dog downrange "STOP". mandatory reshoot

What rule specifically covers that? Or are you 'bending' rules again. Was it you that already admitted to ignoring the calibration rules for poppers?

You may be right. I would just shoot the dog if it ran onto a course of fire.

[okorpheus]

As for a dog downrange "STOP". mandatory reshoot

What rule specifically covers that? Or are you 'bending' rules again. Was it you that already admitted to ignoring the calibration rules for poppers?

8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.

The dog falls under external influence.

[Sarge]

As for a dog downrange "STOP". mandatory reshoot

What rule specifically covers that? Or are you 'bending' rules again. Was it you that already admitted to ignoring the calibration rules for poppers?

8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.

The dog falls under external influence.

The dog is an external influence I agree. But in the case of this rule it is presumed the shooter finished the stage. That is the only way the RO can offer a reshoot before the shooter sees the scores or time. Then that would presume the shooting was allowed to continue with the dog running around on the stage. That probably won't happen. STOP will be given and the dog will be dealt with, the stage reset and the shooter will reshoot. 8.6.4 can't be used once a shooters course of fire has been stopped by an RO.

[okorpheus]

As for a dog downrange "STOP". mandatory reshoot

What rule specifically covers that? Or are you 'bending' rules again. Was it you that already admitted to ignoring the calibration rules for poppers?

8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.

The dog falls under external influence.

The dog is an external influence I agree. But in the case of this rule it is presumed the shooter finished the stage. That is the only way the RO can offer a reshoot before the shooter sees the scores or time. Then that would presume the shooting was allowed to continue with the dog running around on the stage. That probably won't happen. STOP will be given and the dog will be dealt with, the stage reset and the shooter will reshoot. 8.6.4 can't be used once a shooters course of fire has been stopped by an RO.

Sure it can. Stop command can be issued anytime any RO feels its necessary. If an RO shouts stop and I haven't broken a rule or had a squib or other unsafe malfunction, Id certainly say I was interfered with and deserve a reshoot.

8.3.5 “Stop” – Any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue this command at any time during the course of fire. The competitor must immediately cease firing, stop moving and wait for further instructions from the Range Officer.

Thread hijack complete

[Sarge]

As for a dog downrange "STOP". mandatory reshoot

What rule specifically covers that? Or are you 'bending' rules again. Was it you that already admitted to ignoring the calibration rules for poppers?

8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.

The dog falls under external influence.

The dog is an external influence I agree. But in the case of this rule it is presumed the shooter finished the stage. That is the only way the RO can offer a reshoot before the shooter sees the scores or time. Then that would presume the shooting was allowed to continue with the dog running around on the stage. That probably won't happen. STOP will be given and the dog will be dealt with, the stage reset and the shooter will reshoot. 8.6.4 can't be used once a shooters course of fire has been stopped by an RO.

Sure it can. Stop command can be issued anytime any RO feels its necessary. If an RO shouts stop and I haven't broken a rule or had a squib or other unsafe malfunction, Id certainly say I was interfered with and deserve a reshoot.

8.3.5 “Stop” – Any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue this command at any time during the course of fire. The competitor must immediately cease firing, stop moving and wait for further instructions from the Range Officer.

Thread hijack complete

That is a mandatory reshoot not an offered reshoot. You can't stop a shooter mid course and say, "would you like a reshoot?" You stop a shooter mid course, correct any issues, then issue a mandatory reshoot. Now it's complete.

[motosapiens]

As for a dog downrange "STOP". mandatory reshoot

What rule specifically covers that? Or are you 'bending' rules again. Was it you that already admitted to ignoring the calibration rules for poppers?

8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.

The dog falls under external influence.

The dog is an external influence I agree. But in the case of this rule it is presumed the shooter finished the stage. That is the only way the RO can offer a reshoot before the shooter sees the scores or time. Then that would presume the shooting was allowed to continue with the dog running around on the stage. That probably won't happen. STOP will be given and the dog will be dealt with, the stage reset and the shooter will reshoot. 8.6.4 can't be used once a shooters course of fire has been stopped by an RO.

Sure it can. Stop command can be issued anytime any RO feels its necessary. If an RO shouts stop and I haven't broken a rule or had a squib or other unsafe malfunction, Id certainly say I was interfered with and deserve a reshoot.

8.3.5 “Stop” – Any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue this command at any time during the course of fire. The competitor must immediately cease firing, stop moving and wait for further instructions from the Range Officer.

Thread hijack complete

That is a mandatory reshoot not an offered reshoot. You can't stop a shooter mid course and say, "would you like a reshoot?" You stop a shooter mid course, correct any issues, then issue a mandatory reshoot. Now it's complete.

I think you are both correct (although you still haven't posted the exact rule that would allow you to call 'stop' for a dog, or bunny rabbit). If something like that distracts the shooter but he finishes the COF, then offering a reshoot *before* the time/score is known is appropriate. If you call 'stop' for a dog, small child or alien, then of course it's a mandatory reshoot.

[whitedog]

Thread split once already...

So...do I get to shoot the alien wandering around the stage? If I don't hear stop, he's getting stuffed for my living room. Ok?

I also wonder why so many times things drift...

A topic starts out on one specific thing and it becomes about goldfish on roller skates.

Popper question ever settled? ?

[motosapiens]

Thread split once already...

So...do I get to shoot the alien wandering around the stage? If I don't hear stop, he's getting stuffed for my living room. Ok?

I also wonder why so many times things drift...

A topic starts out on one specific thing and it becomes about goldfish on roller skates.

Popper question ever settled?

I think the popper question is settled, but I'm sure there are people who still believe that it is not possible under any circumstances to have a reshoot for a mis-set popper if it is shot down. Seems to me we had a thread here a few months ago about a similar situation affecting the womens supersquad at B2B nationals and a few internet experts had harsh words for Troy and John Amidon. To me it just underscores the importance of making sure equipment is reset properly, which is admittedly easier at a major match with a dedicated stage staff than it is at a local match with embedded RO's.

As to the thread drift, i think that's what happens when people stop bringing anything new to the discussion. I'm ok with that.

Our range is actually a wildlife preserve, so shooting the alien might be ok, but if you shoot a bunny rabbit, you are committing a crime. The dog ended up going to the animal shelter after I went door to door and couldn't find the owners, and it got reclaimed the following day. Apparently it had crawled under the fence on the back side of the range, far away from the front gate, and I only visited the 5-6 closest houses to the front gate.

Edited March 31, 2014 by motosapiens

[Sarge]

Popper question ever settled?

Yes it did thank god. No reshoot once a popper is shot down.