Can shot call with one gun but not another

[fvaly77]

I read Practical Shooting, watched all the popular videos on youtube, read a bunch of threads here and if I found my answer I'm not seeing it. I've been trying to shot call with my M&P 4.25" 9mm, a gun I probably have 6K+ rds through. I found Brian's advice on a neutral grip fascinating. I've been using the two high thumb grip for 6 months. When I shoot the gun it goes up and hard right, almost at a 45 degree angle. I can tame it a little but it takes grip strength. If I just try to let it bob it turns into a wild ride. It's been a PITA to track but I have my moments.

Tonight after practice I pick up an XDm 5.25 and am blown away by the difference. When I shoot this gun it tracks up and down almost in a perfect vertical line. I'm not sure what to think of this as it was consistent. Shot after shot it made rapid fire shot calling almost easy (almost). I was getting the best groups of my life and everything I've read and seen actually came together and made sense, Picked my gun back up and that front sight is taking a flight to NYC every shot.

So the question is.. can the gun really make that much difference? I mean it did but are there other factors at play here that I'm not catching? The grip of both guns felt similar. Is there a technique I may be missing besides driving to my LGS for a new gun? What are we looking at here, technique or mechanical?

[alma]

The significant recoil up and to the right sounds to me like your left hand doesn't have enough of a grip on the gun or you are gripping too hard with your right. It's possible that your hands both fit on the XDM better allowing a more neutral grip. BE does stay however that it doesn't matter how it recoil as long as it comes back onto the sights. The XDM will have a better sight radius and might have a bit less felt recoil so that might be improving your perception too. If your results are that dramatic then why fight it? Get an XDm.

[LiveShootLive]

It also sounds like you were fighting the recoil. The sights really track straight up and down when your grip is relaxed and neutral, and that makes all the difference in the world.

[BeerBaron]

personally I think if you shoot that much better with the longer version I'd be thinking about switching to that. unless this is carry gun. but if it's for comps and one platform suits you better than another... move to that platform!

[fvaly77]

Very dramatic difference between the tracking on the 2 guns. I spent months fixing my grip, one of the first things I worked on. Been working on shot calling for about a month now. I am still trying to find that sweet spot that lets the M&P bob up and down and come back like BE says a gun should with a good neutral grip. Picked up the 5.25 tonight and every shot the gun worked like you'd want it to tracking beautifully up and down coming back right where it should. A friend is letting me shoot his M&P Pro this weekend at a match. That might help shed some light on if the added length is making that big of a difference. The whole thing is a little perplexing.

[blairmckenzie1]

i was listening to patrick kelly talk about trying new guns/gear somewhere recently. he talked about how when you try something new you tend to focus on the fundamentals because it is something new. then when it works well you think it is the new gear, but it was that you were focusing on the fundementals.

thats one school of thought.

the other is maybe the other gun suits you better. it seems like it was a big difference for you, which kinda doesn't make sense. but maybe it "fits" you so well that it works for you.

(hope I'm not misquoting someone)

[fvaly77]

BeerBaron, I don't carry what I shoot for IDPA. I'm not that player. The longer platform is an option. Just trying to make what I have work. Side work has been slow, gun fund is low.

Blair, it doesn't make sense to me either, that's why I'm here. I had considered the new gear theory but it was just so easy and almost perfect. Still possible I guess.

[fvaly77]

Okay, a little more feedback. Today I shot a friends M&P Pro in an early morning IDPA match. My normal gun a SSP 4.25" M&P has stock grips, sear, and trigger but does have the basic Apex spring kit putting the pull at about 4.5lbs. My buddy's ESP 5" M&P Pro has stock grips but Apex trigger, sear and springs yielding about a 3lb pull. 2 shots in I identified the same awesome sight tracking and let those doggies run! I found myself once again getting that perfect up and down bobbing I desire and very fast tracking.

Just as a last ditch effort and because I do enjoy the gun, I'm going to install some Talon grips in case the gun is some how twisting in my hands and I'm going to reduce the trigger pull even more. Total shots in the dark here but besides some helpful advice on technique I'm not really finding anyone that can identify with this issue. I don't know many people calling shots either but I figured for a gun I would at minimum carry for backup to comps I may as well set it up.

Oh and as far as letting those doggies run.. 0.36 seconds out of first overall for the match this morning. Just one less -1 shot and I would have taken it all.

[alma]

Can you explain what you mean when you talk about calling shots?

Having the gun track and sights to one side during recoil should have nothing to do with calling shots. The important skill for calling shots is knowing where the sights were when the gun fired. The secondary task is allowing the gun to recoil is such a way that it naturally returns with sights aligned. It doesn't matter whether it recoils to one side or the other so long as the sights return.

[fvaly77]

I'd be glad to. Surely I can call shots the way it works and on most days i can but there is a huge difference in time between a nice vertical bob and trying to consistently get a gun to settle back in that's shooting off at a 45 degree angle. You're right, perhaps I've worded this funny but regardless the question has all been about why I can get such a clean track on other guns but not mine. Whatever habit I have developed it drops right into a longer gun and it rocks! It was amazing on the bone stock rental 5.25 and today with my buddy's Pro. What ever edge these guns are offering its working. I still don't understand why the difference is so dramatic but it doesn't seem anyone else does either and that's okay. I was hoping someone would be able to relate and maybe they will. My guess is the added barrel length is aiding in a couple ways. Parts are coming for mine. It will be down to a 3lb pull by next weekend and have some fancy grip tape on it. Maybe a little more traction and less pull will aid whatever it is I'm doing. I figure it can't hurt.

[alma]

Is there any significant difference in the ergonomics or width of the respective grips? Any difference at all on where your left hand is sitting or how much it is engaged during recoil?

I longer barrel might reduce the flip but I am with you, something else is at play here. Based on your description I think it would be not having enough support hand engaged during recoil.

[fvaly77]

The M&P pro I shot and mine are identical besides barrel length. That was an interesting test. My buddy has the older gen that even has the exact same backstrap. The 5.25 does have the typical XDm grip which is more agressive. As far as I can tell I am replicating the same grip. When I was drawing and shooting the Pro this morning I was in my game mindset just letting my subconscious do its job. No conscious effort was applied durring the match to change anything. I just capitalized on the sweet tracking.

I have another match next Sunday so hopefully my new swag comes in and I can get some range time in by Friday. With a little luck maybe I can buy my way out of this, haha.

[BeerBaron]

it sounds like going to the full size gun might be the best option when funds allow. I'd say you've developed a good grip in controlling the short version so that when you move to the longer version you find it easier to shoot.

[Jshuberg]

Those two pistols are similar enough that if you were employing proper technique, you should be able to shoot them equally as well. One may "feel" better to you, but the fact hey behave differently indicates there is an error in your technique. I would *not* attempt to solve a technique problem with equipment. It's extremely likely that the error that the 4.25" M&P has brought to your attention also exists when shooting other pistols, just to a much lesser extent, or possibly the error manifests itself as a different outcome. Whenever you find yourself experiencing errors when shooting a particular gun, you should spend the time to figure out why. Is it simply an unfamiliar weapon, or is it exposing something in your technique?

It sounds like the problem is either trigger control or grip. Next time your at the range try the following:

Load and chamber one round. Grip the pistol in your weapon hand loosely, it should be able to be pulled straight out of your hand from the top with very little effort. With your support hand, put your index finger under the trigger guard, and balance the pistol between the web of your weapon hand, and the index finger of your support hand. Its OK to allow your support hand to touch or rest on your weapon hand, but you should be applying absolutely no grip strength with your support hand, it is there simply so the front of the gun has something forward of the grip to balance on. The fingers of your weapon hand should be *loosely* wrapped around the grip. The gun should wobble if you move your hands around. Again, it should basically be balanced between the web of your weapon hand, and resting on top of your index finger of your support hand. As long as your weapon hand fingers are wrapped around the grip, it will not leave your hand when fired. It's going to jump around a lot more than when you have a solid grip, but it won't get away from you, although just in case it does load only one round.

Bring the pistol balanced like this in front of you and line up the sights. They may be wobbling or drifting slightly because of the loose grip. Aim at a 3" target at 10 yards or so, and begin your trigger press. You'll notice that as soon as you apply pressure to the trigger, that the gun will actually stabilize in your hands, as the rearward pressure will dampen the wobble. Don't worry about tracking your sight or calling your shot, just continue slowly pressing the trigger rearward until the pistol fires. Then look for the hole. Was it where you aimed? If so, do this several more times, both further loosening your grip until you're not willing to go any looser for safety, and also speeding up your trigger press until you get to your normal speed.

What you're doing is by using a very loose grip thats allowed to wobble in your hands, you're amplifying the effects of trigger errors. As long as your trigger weight is somewhere north of 2.5 lbs or so a perfectly rearward trigger press will stabilize the pistol enough to make an accurate shot. If you're not grouping around the same size you usually do, you've uncovered a trigger press error. Try this with both guns. If you discover that you are printing to the right more with your 4.25" M&P, you've discovered the source of the problem.

If this is your problem, I would not try to solve a trigger issue by adjusting your grip, or changing equipment, etc. you should solve the problem where the problem is. If you discover that this *is* your problem, or otherwise discover an error in your trigger press, try the following to correct the problem:

Visualize a string that is connected to the back of the trigger, that goes through the frame and grip, through your hands, and to the tip of your nose. Inside your nose there is a small winch that will slowly wind up the string, pulling the trigger directly towards your nose. See the string in your minds eye. When you decide to begin your trigger press, visualize the winch winding up and the trigger being pulled perfectly rearward. Visualize that your trigger finger is simply riding the trigger rearward as it's winched directly toward your nose.

Now, of course you will actually be applying pressure with your trigger finger, but by employing this visualization while implementing the loose grip technique above, you will be training yourself to perform a perfectly rearward trigger squeeze while amplifying any errors so you can easily identify them. You could try changing where your finger rests on the trigger, but when you do this you should be trying to find the location where you are able to most easily *follow* the rearward press of the trigger to your nose by the winching up of the string. The main reason this works is that instead of *following* the motion of the trigger with your mind when you're simply observing it, you're *leading* the motion of the trigger with your mind by using visualization, and you're also providing your subconscious an additional instruction of exactly what you're trying to do.

If it turns out this is not your problem, is will most certainly be an error in your grip. I've found that a lot of time what might appear to be a grip related issue is often a trigger control issue, so it's generally a good idea to examine trigger control first to either rule it in or out when trying to identify an error in the firing sequence.

Hope this helps.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Jshuberg

[fvaly77]

Jshuberg, I appreciate the time you put into your post. It's a road I've traveled before but I will take it as a solid reminder to make sure I give the basics one more go around to try and diagnose this. I am however committed to changing some parts. I loved the trigger of my buddy's pro and already ordered the parts. I should have them in and installed Wednesday and range time hopefully to follow Thursday. If I can get to the range I will post back with my findings.

[MikeRush]

There are certainly setups that are easier to track (and call) than others- it's not really as much of a technique issue as needing to see more. A single stack with 230 grain bullets, just seems (to me) to float its way on up and back down. My short dust cover limited gun is more difficult to track. I had even more weight taken out of the slide (currently under 10 oz bare) and I am just barely starting to track it (and it took firing rounds pointed down range while observing, without aiming at - where have we read that before?) You do need to achieve a neutral grip and pull the trigger straight to the rear, but I feel like seeing sights lift is more of an observation than a mechanic. With the SS I can see when I pull a shot, or when I don't let the sights settle.

Additional sight radius also makes sight misalignment or issues with fundamentals easier to spot. Plenty of guys talk about how perfect their G19 is because they have read it on a forum- hand them a G24 and they will be blown away. I'd say keep practicing with what you have for now, but there is nothing wrong with wanting an XDm or M&P Pro. Just don't try a 6" 2011...

[Steve RA]

I'd just shoot the one that works the best !!

[Jshuberg]

If the front sight is recoiling up at near a 45 degree angle as described, its either a seriously flawed pistol or an error in technique.

There's nothing at all wrong with preferring certain equipment, trigger weights, etc. But if you use equipment to mask an error in technique you''l likely stall out and cease making progress at some point in the near future. Your pistol is trying to tell you something, if you take the time to listen to it you'll become a much better shooter.

[Ben Stoeger]

Okay, a little more feedback. Today I shot a friends M&P Pro in an early morning IDPA match. My normal gun a SSP 4.25" M&P has stock grips, sear, and trigger but does have the basic Apex spring kit putting the pull at about 4.5lbs. My buddy's ESP 5" M&P Pro has stock grips but Apex trigger, sear and springs yielding about a 3lb pull. 2 shots in I identified the same awesome sight tracking and let those doggies run! I found myself once again getting that perfect up and down bobbing I desire and very fast tracking.

Could you give some information on what exactly "sight tracking" and "shot calling" mean to you? People tend to not mean quite the same thing all the time and I just want to get on the same page as you before I can make a constructive comment.

[ktm300]

Not much of a gunsmith but it sure seems like if he shoots a similar gun and the recoil goes straight up and down, then he shoots his gun and the recoil pushes off at a 45 something is wrong with that gun. Something binding on one side of the gun????

[fvaly77]

Okay, a little more feedback. Today I shot a friends M&P Pro in an early morning IDPA match. My normal gun a SSP 4.25" M&P has stock grips, sear, and trigger but does have the basic Apex spring kit putting the pull at about 4.5lbs. My buddy's ESP 5" M&P Pro has stock grips but Apex trigger, sear and springs yielding about a 3lb pull. 2 shots in I identified the same awesome sight tracking and let those doggies run! I found myself once again getting that perfect up and down bobbing I desire and very fast tracking.

Could you give some information on what exactly "sight tracking" and "shot calling" mean to you? People tend to not mean quite the same thing all the time and I just want to get on the same page as you before I can make a constructive comment.

No problem Ben. First of all I think I've kind of botched the whole question to begin with. It's really a matter of efficiency that I've struggled with. The title says shot call with one but not the other but that was a moment of unintelligent frustration typing. As I understand it shot calling is that moment you've sighed in and taken the shot and know where it should have placed without actually watching it place. When I shot the 5.25 and the M&P Pro I could easy track the front sight as I fired the gun. They both produced a nice tight vertical bob in my hands that led to my fastest shots ever. Very comfortably too! I could follow that front sight from target to target quickly and knew as I took my shots on the targets that front sight would fall right back into place for follow ups. Everything needed 2 shots in this last match. I had multiple people say great double taps but I wasn't just pulling the trigger twice fast, I was doing it like we're supposed to, I could actually see the front sight drop back in that quick with the Pro. The shots were placing where I was calling them too. It was very cool.

Now to clarify my issue here. With my 4.25 I can follow that front from target to target but when I take a shot I feel as if I'm working to get back on with my sights. That jump up and to the right isn't just falling back into place for me. There's nothing clean or fluid feeling about it. I shoot more matches then I do practice and I've really wanted to get to the range this week to give my technique another honest evaluation but work's been nuts. Only had time for some dry fire. I'm still not fully grasping how a gun 3/4" longer then mine works so perfect for me but maybe the lighter trigger is masking poor trigger control. Not sure and I'm open to advice. Thanks

[Ben Stoeger]

Are you gripping the pistols the same? I mean do you really have control over the M&P? It sounds like if you crushed down on it a bit more you would like the way it tracks.

[fvaly77]

I think I'm gripping them the same but I did notice at my last practice session I could control my M&P better when I clamped down on it more then normal. Is okay to go that route? To be honest I've been shooting pistols for about a year but only really tried doing things right and reading up on fundamentals and techniques since the new year. I read Champion Shooting: A Proven Process For Success At Any Level last month. Practical Shooting before that. It's all helping immensely but sometimes I get an idea of how I think something must be done and it's not always spot on. The neutral grip thing actually gave me the idea to back off a bit on strength. I was doing a 40/60 gorilla grip last year. I don't miss it but maybe I'm running a little limp now.

[Ben Stoeger]

I think the shorter/smaller guns tend to demand you firm up the grip a bit more. I don't think it would be bad to try that out for awhile.

[fvaly77]

I'll give it a try, thanks Ben. Installed a different sear and striker block this morning. Feels a little better and it's world of difference detecting the reset. It's a bit of gamble because I won't have time to test them out today but I'm excited to try them out at tomorrow's match.