Can shot call with one gun but not another

[fvaly77]

Update:
Never made it to a practice yet but I did get to a little comp. I tried out the new Pinetree Defensive Pistol match this morning (USPSA/IDPA hybrid). I did get everything installed in the gun and wrapped the grip with the Talon sand paper style kit. My grip was firm and everything paid off. I was very pleased how I shot and how I was able to get the pistol to perform in my hands. So much so that I'm definitely holding off on buying the Pro for a while. I really like the Talon grip. I spent about 30min dry firing with it and sanding down specific areas to allow my hand to slide on for a better draw but between that and clamping down a bit on the M&P it felt like I was firing my buddy's gun. That trigger job didn't hurt anything either.

I'm officially over the gun envy and back to focusing on me. Next step is to tighten up those groups. Here's a vid of today's performance. I went for the long shots first so I wouldn't have to jump back and forth from shot types.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBs9uKxBqlE

I started this thead looking for a magic answer and you all did a good job at reminding me that it was me. Feels great to be as connected with my gun as I was with those others. Thanks for the help everyone.

Edited March 16, 2014 by fvaly77

[alma]

Any chance you have video from the other side? It looks like you may not have your left hand properly engaged on the grip. It looks from the video like your left thumb is pointing up at a 45 degree angle instead of boring parallel with the barrel. It makes me think that your right hand grip is getting in the way of your left hand being able to get down on the grip.

I have to lift my right thumb up and off the grip at first to make room to get the palm of my left properly engaged. Then my right thumb rents on top of my left thumb or rides the safety with both thumbs running parallel to the barrel.

[fvaly77]

It is as you see it. My hands are huge. I have 2 choices. 1 is way you describe and I tried that route but to get my left thumb under my right I end up with my left pinky and ring finger under the gun like I'm shooting a compact. It works but weird. I end up cupping the bottom of the gun or half my hand has nowhere to rest. The other is what you see where I keep the left higher,heal of palm against the grip and let the thumb float.

[fvaly77]

Maybe I have 3 choices. I'm open to suggestions. But the huge hand thing is real. I would never buy a glock because those molded grips feel like they're made for the fingers of children.

[alma]

It shouldn't require you two move your fingers any lowered with your left hand to make it work but your left wrist should begin angled sharper which will naturally bring the left thumb higher on the gun. The only thing you have to do then is make room for it by getting your right hand out of the way.

I have large hands as well (not as large as yours though) and used to have the same issue with getting my support hand engaged.

I might be able to get you some pictures or a video describing how I do it. I think Enos covers this in his book and I seem to remember the topic coming up in one of Burkett's videos as well.

I think being able to get your support hand higher and more of your support hand's palm on the gun will correct the issue discussed in this thread.

Having a slightly larger grip on the gun would of course help too. Any chance you have tried a Houge grip sleeve to set if that makes it any better?

[fvaly77]

I'm very familiar with the technique you describe. It's possible it's one of those things I practiced and interpreted something wrong. I can angle the wrist more and it feels fine but that little rotation puts me back to cupping the bottom of the gun. Maybe that's okay and I should try it again but I've never seen or heard instruction from someone with as much hand as mine and haven't found a good way to place that extra hand off the bottom. If you stacked my fingers along side the hand of a normal sized one you can almost always add a fifth finger to match the width of my 4. As far as a larger grip my hands are thick too not leaving much room when I grip the gun. The larger backstrap and huge type grips totally screw up my trigger finger placement. I end up trying to stretch the finger to get the pad where it belongs. Been down that road. Maybe I can get some pics to better illustrate.

As far as the problem I started this thread for with following the sight it pretty much disappeared with the talon grip and clamping down. It's tracking vertically real nice now. I'm total open to having my grip worked on in person but I'm not 100% sure this is getting fixed on the internet. May even ask around the local club again to see if anyone has some thoughts. I feel confident enough in my equipment now to keep working on my mental game and sight processing. I do appreciate the help and would be interested in any pics you may have if you have larger hands. Maybe it will point me in a better direction or spark some good questions.

[JeffJ99]

I don't have a ton of trigger time with the M&Ps but I noticed that while they felt really good, it had a tendency to move around a little in my grip during live fire. The grip tape may have fixed that for you.

[alma]

Rather than continue to try and type out what I am trying to describe I made you a short video showing you my grip. Let me know if it's at all helpful.

[fvaly77]

Great vid! alma that's pretty cool you took the time to do that. You do have some meaty paws too, lol. I spotted that right away, paused it, grabbed a house gun and followed along. Now I've handled a couple 34's and my pinky sits on top of the last rib closer to the mag then not but I think you proved something valuable to me here. Even how you're working that left palm in behind those right hand finger tips is interesting. I actually had dug up a Tomasie video first before checking in to share to show we were talking about the same technique but the guy has really average hands that don't get close to relatabe. I totally get what you're saying now about getting out of the way of your left now. Your CZ grip was most interesting. Looks like you're really covering that thing.

Now this was a little old hat for me and I quickly remembered why I drifted away from it. 1) My pinky is under the gun with the proper grip and just feels out of place. 2) I gave up on this grip before I knew anything about about shooting. I read some random articles and watch some vids. I'm definitely at a point were I believe everything is important.

You have me thinking now and I'll post a pic of that pinky and how it sits under the gun and maybe you or anyone can offer some advice as what to do with that. Live with it, curl it under the gun, cut it off.. okay no cutting. Gotta fire up the grill and start dinner now, do the family thing. Thanks.

[fvaly77]

Three pics. I'm going to start out by saying that I'm pretty sure in my past visit to this grip I did not have my left thumb far enough forward. This feels real good and my left palm is printing a lot more on the grip. My left pinky is just kind of hanging out down there but it's not all that bad.

[alma]

Looks like good grip. Is that how you have been shooting?

While not as sever I have the same issue with my CZ when using the 17 round magazines which don't extend much beyond the bottom of the magwell. Because of this I have standardized on using the 18 round mags which add a place for my pinky to comfortably rest. I will likely be retrofitting all of my 17s and 18s with the new Springer Precision basepads that extends them all to that longer length.

When sshooting my G27 I used to curl my pinky under the grip but I suggest that the better move would be to invest in some extended basepads.

YYou could use the Springer Precision M&P extensions to add another .25" on if you need more length then pick up some Taran Tactical 140mm extensions. The Springers don't add capacity whereas the Taran Taticals would. Not sure about fitting in the box with the 140mms so it's something to investigate. As long as it still fits in the box and you only load to 10 rounds then you should be legal to run any of the aftermarket basepads.

Edited March 18, 2014 by alma

[fvaly77]

No, I've been using the grip you spotted in the video. Thanks for working with me here. I had contact with my left palm but not this good. I did a little dry fire with the left thumb out in front like that, felt great. I think that was my biggest problem before, I was trying to cover the left thumb with the right more. I'll check the rules on IDPA SSP, what I shoot the most, I know they have restrictions on baseplates but that's a good idea too. Thanks for all the help. I don't have any shoots till April 5th but I'm going to try to adopt this technique and give it a solid run.

[SonOfSpartans]

fvaly77. I thought I had big hands. You had me thinking that was a M&P compact! I have a M&P like yours. Even with my hands and the largest back strap I have to do basically what Alma shows to get my sights to track up and down. If I do not get that grip snuggled in I too have noticed the loop de loop off to the right on an angle. Something my STI does not do with the grip on it.

[fvaly77]

Haha, I should post some pics with my XDS45 in those hands. I almost need the conceal license just to hold it. I'm getting some great help here. I took 1st in class last weekend and 4th overall. I bet with some practice with this grip I'll be able to tighten those shots up quick. Like JeffJ said I think that grip tape helped and a proper hold is just going to make it better.

[alma]

FYI, here is a thread from Springer Precision about its new M&P basepads. Looks like the .25" fit the box with room to spare but there is also a .375" length option. Scott Springer (Loves2Shoot) is a regular here an I am sure he would be happy to point you in the right direction for legal options to extend the grip using basepads.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190933&view=&hl=&fromsearch=1

Edited March 18, 2014 by alma

[fvaly77]

Got some range time in tonight. It took shooting a bit of ammo to kill some bad habits but after 400rds I started to put everything back together. To bad I only had 50rds left when I finally felt smooth with everything again. Left thumb forward, wrist tilted, palm worked into the grip and it didn't take long before that pinky hanging didn't even cross my mind. At the end I was shooting at (5) 3" circles at 7yrds and that last 50rds all placed in those rings at a VERY fast pace. Faster then I shoot at comps. April 5th will be my next match so plenty of time for dry fire to get the new grip on lock for draw and I should have time for one more live fire practice. Oh.. I tossed the Talon grip by the time I got home. Loved it at first but the glue on the grip tape was moving on the rubber backstrap of my M&P once it got warmed up from my hands in practice. I'm not dealing with that.

[alma]

So back to the original post are you noticing a difference in tracking during recoil?

It's great to hear that things are coming together. Dry fire will help a lot. Getting your grip correct out of the holster and after reloads is critical and repeated dry fire session will go a lot further to lock in the new technique than just the occasional range session. After the dry fire draw and reloads you can stop and check your grip to confirm you are still where you want to be. It will take a lot of repetition to break the old habits and learn new. Just when you think you have left the old behind you get adrenaline going in a competition and make an instinctive fallback to the old grip. Muscle memory is your best friend or worst enemy.

As you transition your grip be aware that you will have to watch out for unintentional manipulation of the slide stop so be aware of slides not looking back or locking back prematurely.

Edited March 20, 2014 by alma

[fvaly77]

Yes to the tracking. When I started this thread I was hung up on the ease of tracking I experienced with other guns, now I'm getting on track with mine. I wish I would have brought more ammo, I had just started to really flow. The right hand has always been where it's supposed to including thumb. The big change was getting that left thumb out in front and wrist angle better. It felt good, I just wanted more time. I'll be able to get right back in it next live fire session.

[zhuk]

Ha your hands look as big holding that thing as mine look small with my 9L lol

Good to know you're getting some traction on your issue. There are things I just can't do to fix what I know I have problems with, just not enough meat on the bones of my hand to begin with heh.

I was gonna suggest swapping out backstraps but you seem to be onto it...yup grip tape is an absolute must (look up Eric Wessleman's Trugrip for the gold-standard on that) Another thing, the M&Ps articulated trigger does require some working out how to most efficiently use it, will be a very different feel to an XD/Glock etc

[fvaly77]

I'm pretty sure by the end of this thread the only thing I won't change my mind on is my name.

I took a couple weekends off from shooting, vacation and some other stuff. I finished With Winning in Mind, another fascinating book. It has really helped me shape my goals. I also thought about how if I had morphed my grip into the disaster it was maybe I should revisit those backstraps as suggested. I am now on the largest backstrap and the grip feels a ton better.

There's been a bit of humility in my journey here but a price well worth the reward. I can admit my technique was seriously flawed. I am much happier with my gun and think changing it now would only hurt my goals. The longer guns were easier for me to shoot but if I want to be a good shooter I see there is more to be gained by working out my issues with what I have.

[zhuk]

Good on you mate! Good to see it coming together and you're teasing apart the factors which you need to change/work on.

On backstraps yeah it might seem illogical for you to use the largest with big mitts but I use the medium size even though my hands are small (but have long fingers) it fills out the hollow of my palm better and allows a better grip.

Agree very much with your last statement - if you master a gun which isn't intrinsically easy to shoot (and none of the duty polymers are compared to specifically accurate "target pistols") then you will really know that you can shoot.

[Gooldylocks]

If the grip tape was sliding off of the rubber grips, have you thought about stippling them? There are a few threads floating around of people that have stippled their M&P backstraps to get more grip on them. If you were to do that you would have the benefits of the grip tape without it sliding around.

Here is one thread about it that I found, I'm sure more could be dug up.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=188614&hl=%2Bm%26amp%3Bp+%2Bstippling