wide45 Posted December 18, 2004 Share Posted December 18, 2004 What if an RO bumps the table and the gun falls over? DQ the shooter? I would hope not. Not really different than if the RO bumps the competitor, and causes the gun to fall from his holster. Still a DQ. I think an ARB would reinstate the competitor on the grounds that he was not being unsafe. Looked it up; 11.1.2 exceptional circumstances. I would not fault a CRO for determining that a DQ is not appropriate, assuming that it would be overturned at ARB. EDIT- I was assuming the gun fell from the table to the ground. Looks like thats not what you meant. Gun still on table, muzzle downrange, no DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yardbird Posted December 18, 2004 Share Posted December 18, 2004 During the entire life of this thread I have been thinking No DQ because the gun was not dropped and though it tipped over I would not consider the gun to have fallen. However... 10.5.3.1 says... ...no DQ provided: The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object... I think that if the gun tipped over it was not "placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object" and thereby fails 10.5.3.1. DQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 Flex, I'd issue the DQ under section 10.5 --- Unsafe Gun Handling. The subsections of 10.5 are intended to provide examples of unsafe gun handling, they're not designed to be a comprehensive list. Why am I issuing a DQ? We do table starts or other gun not in holster starts from a variety of objects in this sport. Some are sturdily built tables, with virtually no chance of shifting, some are rickety, old donated card tables, some are nightstands or other pieces of furniture, some are barrels. Sometimes they're set on stable ground, sometimes on uneven ground. I believe that anytime there's an uncontrolled position change to a firearm that ends in an impact there's a potential for a safety violation. I've adopted this start position (gun set upright on magwell and comp) a couple of times when shooting my open gun --- in situations where I was certain it was safe. I wouldn't start that way on a barrel, or on a rickety card table, or on any other surface that I thought might be unstable. I've chosen to use a race holster for some USPSA matches --- but you won't see me wearing one at a USPSA Multi-gun event or at a three gun match. This won't be an issue at any match I run --- either the table would be sturdy enough to allow for the start position, or the WSB would specify "Gun laying on either side"...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 I don't think 10.5.3 applies to the start position. If it does, then you must DQ any competitor more than 1 meter from the gun. 10.5.3.2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yardbird Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 wide45, 10.5.3 says ...for any reason during a course of fire... If the COF starts at LAMR, then 10.5.3 must apply. You assume the start position after LAMR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 I've seen a bunch of starts where the competitors were more than one meter from the gun. No DQ's You can't have it both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yardbird Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 I've seen those starts too. but those are the rules I'm reading in the book right now. I agree, according to what I'm reading they should be illegal start positions. Hey somebody... am I reading this wrong?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 See THIS THREAD for clarification. A clarifying rule is on Vince's radar screen --- since the intent was apparently to have the requirements of 10.5.3.2 apply after the starting beep...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 Thank you. As we are now ignoring rule 10.5.3.2, and therefore 10.5.3, there is no problem unless the gun falls off the table. The gun may be placed in any manor that conforms with the WSB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 There's a problem if the RO has a problem. From the IPSC Handgun Competition Rules, USPSA Version, January 2004: 10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun HandlingExamples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to: If the RO determines that a gun tipping over on the table is unsafe, he's obligated to inform the shooter of a DQ....... You can appeal that by arguing it's not unsafe ---- and you might win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 If the RO determines that a gun tipping over on the table is unsafe, he's obligated to inform the shooter of a DQ.......You can appeal that by arguing it's not unsafe ---- and you might win. I think it would be a bogus call, but you are right. It could happen. That's one reason why I wouldn't stand the gun up to start. I do defend your right to do it if you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 ..... there is no problem unless the gun falls off the table. Why must the gun actually fall to the ground for it to be declared "unsafe gun handling". Consider a competitor who, when given the LAMR command, draws his gun, fumbles it, but he catches it 6" from the ground? Do you not consider that to be unsafe gun handling (even if the muzzle remains pointed downrange during the fumble)? If you're not in control of your gun during a COF, you're unsafe. If you place a loaded gun on table in such a manner that it's an accident waiting to happen, you're unsafe. Hitting the ground is not the criteria - your actions are the criteria. By the same token if, during a COF, you remove your magazine, lock back your slide, then point your gun at an angle of 91 degrees while your fingers are visibly outside of the trigger guard, you still hit the showers. We need a bit more commonsense, and a lot less arguing about "gaming rights". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 Let me see if I can take these in order... QUOTE (Flexmoney @ Dec 18 2004, 06:29 PM) Instead of going for "dropped", I think you'd better write the shooter up for "causing it to fall" if you want to DQ him. Of course but, if you don't think that standing a gun with a loaded chamber upright on a table, so that it's resting only on it's muzzle and magazine well, is not unsafe gun handling, I'm speechless. Speechless? LOL...I doubt it. What makes you think this is dangerous? Is the gun magically going to go off? Isn't the muzzle pointed down range? Aren't the safeties engaged? What could happen? I gust of wind could come along an tip the gun over onto it's side. OK...big deal. The safeties are still on. The muzzle is still pointed down range. QUOTE (Flexmoney @ Dec 18 2004, 06:29 PM) I believe that 10.5.3.1 has been satisfied Are you telling me that you consider the action described satifies the "firmly and securely" aspects of the subject rule?? Lets not go leaving words out of the rule. It says, "...contact...until it is placed firmly and securely" I think we both know the idea behind this rule was to keep shooters from skidding, face-first, down the range after tripping...with their gun skidding along the ground in front of them (having not been PLACED on the ground). Why is the table situation any different? Kevin, perhaps we should consider the table to be the same as a holster? We aren't talking about the blaster tumbling through space. Is a gun falling over on a table unsafe? So worrisome that it warrants a DQ? I certainly don't think so. The muzzle is in a safe direction, and guns take a heck of a lot more jarring holstered when they hang up going through a doorway, or catch on the arms of a chair. Very true. Standing the gun up on muzzle and magwell is not unsafe. If it falls over, but stays on the table, muzzle downrange, no DQ. If it falls off the table, or turns uprange, for any reason, then you must DQ. Couldn't be more clear than that. I've adopted this start position (gun set upright on magwell and comp) a couple of times when shooting my open gun --- in situations where I was certain it was safe. I wouldn't start that way on a barrel, or on a rickety card table, or on any other surface that I thought might be unstable. I've chosen to use a race holster for some USPSA matches --- but you won't see me wearing one at a USPSA Multi-gun event or at a three gun match. Nik, Your holster choice is just that...your choice. Same thing goes for the written stage briefing that doesn't specify the gun orientation. If, as the RO, you feel that the rickety old barrel you have the shooter putting their gun on is unsafe...have the MD come and make the needed change. This won't be an issue at any match I run --- either the table would be sturdy enough to allow for the start position, or the WSB would specify "Gun laying on either side"...... Ditto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 Lets not go leaving words out of the rule. It says, "...contact...until it is placed firmly and securely" Let me ask a simple question: Do you think it's safe to stand a loaded gun erect on it's muzzle and magazine well? I think we both know the idea behind this rule was to keep shooters from skidding, face-first, down the range after tripping...with their gun skidding along the ground in front of them (having not been PLACED on the ground). Nope, that's not the reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 I would, but then again, I would also not wander off and leave it there, I would do this and have where I am practicing pick-ups and draws. I would also stand the gun this way for the 5-15 seconds that might pass after I set it down and the timer beep was heard signaling the start of the shooting portion of the COF. No I would not store my loaded gun on a table like this and walk away leaving it unattended. But then again this thread is not about how I ior anyone else would store their gun at home. It is about what the RO can dictate to you at the beginning of a COF as to the allowable start positions. Isn't it? Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 It is about what the RO can dictate to you at the beginning of a COF as to the allowable start positions. Isn't it? I was actually seeking a reply from Flex, but I know you find me irresistible. Yes, we're talking about how far an RO can go in limiting the parameters of your choice of Start Position when the WSB is not crystal clear, and I've continued to maintain that the RO has a duty to ensure reasonable consistency because even simple English expressions used commonly in IPSC (and I've already quoted examples), can have some pretty extreme interpretations, some of which can cross the line into cheating. The main difference between our stances is that you would demand the RM change the WSB, and that's entirely your prerogative, but I would accept the reasonable guidance given by the CRO, because I don't think he's out to get me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 Vince, I'm not Flex, but I'll answer. I think it is safe. A bunch of USPSA guns are flattened at the end of the long dust cover and at the front of the magwell solely to ensure they will stand up this way. So I'm at a stage you are running, and I set my gun down this way. You wouldn't say, "That's not how we do it here, lie it down.", you'd DQ me? It is a harsh world you live in! I really think this is a regional thing, I think I remember Jay Worden at our RO class discussing this and stating the upright position is legal, unless otherwise specified. Heck, the skeet shooters probably think running with loaded guns is dangerous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 Lets not go leaving words out of the rule. It says, "...contact...until it is placed firmly and securely" Let me ask a simple question: Do you think it's safe to stand a loaded gun erect on it's muzzle and magazine well? Isn't that clear from my post (above)? Where I ask you what is dangerous about it? How about your World Champ? Have you seen his video of his Major matches from 2003? In there he starts his gun balanced on the muzzle and magwell. If I recall, he even states it is his favorite gun start position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 A bunch of USPSA guns are flattened at the end of the long dust cover and at the front of the magwell solely to ensure they will stand up this way. Wow, John. You must have a lot of table starts in the USA where the WSB does not include the words "laid flat" or "laid on it's side"!! According to my reliable sources, that's not the case at Area matches or at the Nationals, so I guess this only occurs at low level matches. How about your World Champ? Have you seen his video of his Major matches from 2003? My World Champ? I guess you mean the undisputed, heavyweight, Open Division World Champ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 USA, Home of the Gamers! And Range lawyers. And Mall Ninjas. I do love it so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 Reasonable. That is a word that in civil law virtually guarantees a lawsuit. Just what is reasonable? Obviously you and I and a few others here have varying degrees of what we would term "reasonable" don't we. You or I may think that it is reasonable to require a competitor to stand in a certain spot or to place his gun just so. But as long as the WSB does not specify what it is that you or I am asking of the competitor, it is not allowed. You say that certain position border on cheating. I say that certain things that some competitors do may be innovative or even brilliant insights into the WSB that maybe the designer didn't think of, or then again, maybe he left those ambiguities in on purpose. If a competitor cheats, there are rules to cover this, from a procedural for creeping or for foot faults, right up to and including a Match DQ for USLC. It is not the place for the RO to coach the shooter. Now, if the WSB says to place your gun on its side on the X with the barrel pointing directly downrange and no artificial props. I thing that we can all agree that the gun must lay on its side, that the slide racker need not be removed, that the X is an X that directly downrange means perpendicular to the backstop. I am sure that there is a DRL someplace that will argue some of these points, let him. We do table starts frequently, although not every match, we also use drawers, shelves, briefcases and other places where you might place your gun in a practical situation. When we are trying to go practical we usually write the WSB much stricter, when we are simply playing a game, we leave them much more open to interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 My whole take on this has been that sometimes the gun can safely start upright, resting on magwell and frame or comp. Other times, that start position seems patently unsafe --- yet is allowed according to the WSB --- which I may not be able to change halfway through the (club) match when I'm the imbedded RO. If the WSB allows for that, it's shooter's choice. If the shooter bobbles the pickup, (irrespective of how they placed the gun on the table) my call will be made based on what I see. If I see the gun fall, it's probable I'd inform the shooter of a DQ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 What Vince is trying to say, I think, is that even if OUR undisputed Open Division World Champion places his super duper open racer on its muzzle and magwell, steps back, assumes the position and the gun falls over he just DQ'ed himself, because he was not in control of his gun when it fell over/dropped to the table surface. He caused it to fall by not being safely in control at all times. Same as I would not be safely in control if I swing a perfectly safe, locked back, no mag, chamber flagged pistol through 90deg's. You may stand your gun upright, but you will be responsible for this action and have the burden of any consequences that might ouccur... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Nik, The difference between us is that I maintain that placing a loaded gun propped upright on it's muzzle and mag well is patently unsafe, regardless of the circumstances. For me, this is not only an accident waiting to happen, it's also not practical, because I'm absolutely 100% certain that nobody ever stores their gun at home on their bedside table in such a manner. This is why my WSBs for table starts will always, without exception, specify "laid flat" or "laid on side". In fact, I invariably require that the gun also have an empty chamber, because I've seen too many novices send their guns flying off the table when they fumble the pick-up, due to time pressure when the buzzer sounds. It's bad enough they get a match DQ as a result but, with an empty chamber, there's no way in the world the gun can discharge when it hits the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 it's also not practical, because I'm absolutely 100% certain that nobody ever stores their gun at home on their bedside table in such a manner. Um ... what do custom built competition guns (with optics, compensators and specially crafted dustcovers and mag wells to allow them to stand safely) have to do with practically and bedside tables? Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts