Starting positions

[Tman33_99]

Oh man, such trouble with words you guys. Here's an idea.

Digital cameras are really cheap these days and they even come free with your phone. How about getting a snap shot of the start position with a real person and let that be the WSB-in-color?

NO....not in the rules. Start Position is in the WSB....period. The RO should enforce that and that alone. If there is some ambiguity, either be consistant or get the RM to clarify the WSB in writing.....I don't want to have to assume a position from a picture that is only ONE representation of many possible start positions and still satisfy the WSB.

[Jim Norman]

Excellent Shred, Thank you.

Now we are back to square one!

Not propped by artifical means. No the slide racker is not artificial. It is a functional part of the gun. And if you want one that is 3" long, as long as no other rule prohibits it, go ahead, but I better not see you remove it and put a shorter one on later! Also, you may out game yourself, too nbad if that Slide Racker hangs up on ports or barricades.

No, you do not have to remove your extended release, again, it may just bite you in the arse, if it is too long, it may just release your mag when you pick up your gun! And you also don't have to grind the cylinder of your revolver flat, or remove a magwell.

Glossary, what a novel idea:

Fingers interlaced, the fingers of one hand passed between the the fingers of the other hand similar to clasped.

Facing Uprange (Downrange): The shooter will face no more than 180/90 degrees to the course. The lower torso must be square to the range, the upper torso may be rotated as far as the shooter is capable within the 180/90 degree mark.

Surrender Position: Upper Arms raised to a position level with the shoulders, upper arms raised straight up (vertical), palms facing forward and fully open, but relaxed.

Wrists above respective shoulders: So long as the shoters wrists are positioned above a level plane at shoulder level, the shooter may position his arms and hands anywhere he pleases provided that his wrists do not cross over athe cener line of the shooters body.

Wrists above shoulders: So long as the wrists are above the horizontal plane at the shooters shoulder level, he may position his arms anyway he likes.

And so on and so on and so on.....

Can someone please tell me how many angles are dancing onthe head of this pin?

Jim Norman

[Mario]

If the WSB said something to the effect "Facing uprange back against wall handgun loaded and holstered hands loose at sides as demonstrated by Range Official" would that be ok?

[Skywalker]

Maybe I'd better clarify my ideas and my position.

1. I want to have the freedom of interpreting the WSB starting position, as a competitor, when this is left purposedly vague by the stage designer/MD, because I feel this adds to the sport. At present, IMHO, this is granted by the rulebook.

2. I also want the possibility of defining an unambiguous starting position for every competitor, without the need of hiring a lawyer to write the WSB. The only solution we came up with here in Italy was to add to the WSB "...as demonstrated by the RO.".

I said I was thinking to something along the lines of what Vince wrote, because that would have granted possibility #2.

I still like to have both the above possibilities as course designer, and I still think some solution has to be found to grant #2 within the rules without the need to write a human anatomy treaty inside the WSB.

[Vince Pinto]

Not propped by artifical means. No the slide racker is not artificial. It is a functional part of the gun. No, you do not have to remove your extended release, <snip>

You continue to miss the point. You've given me your (and my!) interpretations, but the point is that even simple, everyday English can be interpreted in different ways by different people, and I'd really hate to see WSBs drafted by lawyers. This is why I continue to say that the RO has a duty (thanks Geek!) to ensure reasonable consistency.

And we're taking about today, right now, the rule book "as is", where the expression "facing uprange" can be taken to a ridiculous extreme. If you come to my stage and try a stunt like having your nipples pointed towards the target, and only your face facing uprange, I just won't start you, and that's because I must ensure reasonable consistency, and I won't lose a minute's sleep with a gamer who wants to cross that narrow line into cheating.

The only reason I've given extreme examples (e.g. taking your shoes off), is to show that if you read some WSBs literally, that's what it says, but it's certainly not the intent, hence again the RO must ensure reasonable consistency.

If the WSB said something to the effect "Facing uprange back against wall handgun loaded and holstered hands loose at sides as demonstrated by Range Official" would that be ok?

Bloody perfect, and I've used that expression more often than once.

[Jim Norman]

Sorry Vince,

We are discussing exactly what I said.

If he WSB says on table, then on table is any place or manner on the table that does not violate any other rule, such as 180 or safety not engaged. Facing uprange means that as long as my face points at least somewhat up range, that is I am not actually truning my neck so that a line drawn through the back of my head, exiting my nose would not break the 180.

There is no rule that allows you as RO to tell me anything beyond the WSB. As to clarity, IF the WSB says gun centered on X, lying on side, you as RO now have a guide to tell me that the gun is to be centered on the X and that it mus lie on its side. You cannot just add to the WSB without the authorization of the RM and he should if possible ask the Stage Designer, since that person may have a reason for the ambiguity that the change may effect.

Luca's idea of specifically allowing the RO to demonstarte tha position is OK by me. It is then contained in the WSB. THis should work so long as there is a dedicated RO on the stage. At the Club level this is not the case, at least not here. We run 5-7 squads with RO's traveling with their respective squads. So a demonstration of a position would change from squad to squad.

As an example, Standing at rear of FFZ-A My squads stands where and how they want, so long as they are at the rear of the FFZ. Your squad is told by their embedded RO that they MUST stand centered at the rear of the FFZ and they must stand erect and so on. Is this fair?

Jim Norman

[Vince Pinto]

If he WSB says on table, then on table is any place or manner on the table that does not violate any other rule, such as 180 or safety not engaged.

OK, let's cut to the chase with a specific question:

If the WSB merely says "Gun on table" would you, as the RO, allow me to prop my chamber loaded gun upright, resting on it's muzzle and magazine well?

[Nik Habicht]

OK, let's cut to the chase with a specific question:

If the WSB merely says "Gun on table" would you, as the RO, allow me to prop my chamber loaded gun upright, resting on it's muzzle and magazine well?

Sure --- as long as it'll sit on the table that way.

[Garfield]

OK, let's cut to the chase with a specific question:

If the WSB merely says "Gun on table" would you, as the RO, allow me to prop my chamber loaded gun upright, resting on it's muzzle and magazine well?

ABSOLUTELY !

In fact, here in NL sometimes the WSB intentionally doesn't specify more than that.

But most of the times our WSB contain the phrase "gun flat on table on the marked spot barrel pointing straight to the bullet stop" or something to that effect. Often we RO's demonstrate things if there is reason to believe that mistakes could be made based upon just the WSB.

[Mario]

OK, let's cut to the chase with a specific question:

If the WSB merely says "Gun on table" would you, as the RO, allow me to prop my chamber loaded gun upright, resting on it's muzzle and magazine well?

Sure --- as long as it'll sit on the table that way.

Would the competitor then be DQ'ed if gun then fell over on the table?

[Nik Habicht]

Yes. After all I'd DQ a competitor who dropped the gun out of his holster.....

The shooter makes his choices, and pays the consequences.....

[Flexmoney]

Yes.  After all I'd DQ a competitor who dropped the gun out of his holster.....

The shooter makes his choices, and pays the consequences.....

Yes?

Under which rule?

Dropped?

[Dead Buff]

10.5.3

[Nik Habicht]

Under which rule?

Dropped?

Yup!

[Flexmoney]

Nope.

I'd certainly see where there is tons of room to arb that.

[Jake Di Vita]

I agree with Flex. YOU did not drop the gun, it wasn't even on your person so you had no physical control of it. Would you DQ a competitor is the gun was laying on the table then a gust from Hell blew it off (yes, unlikely, but still)?

[Nik Habicht]

Jake,

Yes, I would --- unless you can convince me otherwise. Anytime a gun drops, for any reason, between LAMR and Range is Clear the competitor has disqualified himself. There's nothing forcing the competitor to set the gun upright, much like there's nothing forcing competitors to use race holsters.

Flex,

want to cite grounds for your proposed arb?

[Vince Pinto]

I'd certainly see where there is tons of room to arb that.

I'd love to hear them .......

[Flexmoney]

Cite the grounds for the DQ first (as required), then I respond.

We aren't talking about a gun going to the ground, we are talking about a gun that is touching on it's nose and magwell...going to a more "flat" position".

[Flexmoney]

heck...lets get right to it.

Dropped:

- To let fall by releasing hold of.

- The act of falling; descent.

- The vertical distance from a higher to a lower level.

- To descend from one level to another.

- The distance through which something falls or drops.

We aren't talking about a gun coming out of a shooters hands or holster...then tumbling to the ground (which I would consider unsafe).

We are talking about a gun that is on a table...safeties engaged...tipping over on it's side. It hasn't fallen to a lower level (dropped). The lowest level of the gun has remained the same (table top). And, as the safeties are engaged...we aren't looking at a dangerous situation.

Instead of going for "dropped", I think you'd better write the shooter up for "causing it to fall" if you want to DQ him.

But, I think that is pretty much covered under all the same stuff as above. I read "dropped" as meaning the shooter had the gun in hand, and "causes it to fall" meaning that the shooter's action knocked the gun loose.

An example of "causes it to fall" would be me knocking my gun out of my unlocked holster with my heavy winter coat.

Regardless...

We aren't even dealing with the first part of 10.5.3 when it comes dow to it, as the shooter has satisfied the last part of 10.5.3...

10.5.3: ... Note that a competitor who, for any reason

during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the firearm

on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided:

OK...the cof starts at LAMR. So, this is where we are at. The sub-sections of 10.5.3 now apply.

Now, I am assuming we are setting the gun on the standard (stable) table...like the common 4ft x 4ft card table. Where a gun tipped over by the wind will not go flying (bouncing) off the table and to the ground. (That is a different situation, and not the subject of this discussion.)

I believe that 10.5.3.1 has been satisfied, and

10.5.3.2 has been satisfied, and

10.5.3.3 has been satisfied, and

10.5.3.4 has been satisfied.

If you think a saftied gun that tips over on is side (on a secure table) has dropped, then you must also be prepared to DQ any shooter that lays their gun flat on a table and has the gun "drop" down on it's mag release (how many times do you see shooters set the gun down, then pick it back up to re-insert the mag after the gun has "dropped"? Often enough, I think.)

[Vince Pinto]

Instead of going for "dropped", I think you'd better write the shooter up for "causing it to fall" if you want to DQ him.

Of course but, if you don't think that standing a gun with a loaded chamber upright on a table, so that it's resting only on it's muzzle and magazine well, is not unsafe gun handling, I'm speechless.

I believe that 10.5.3.1 has been satisfied

Are you telling me that you consider the action described satifies the "firmly and securely" aspects of the subject rule??

[John Dunn]

I think this is one of those USPSA/IPSC divides. I think here in the states it is fairly routine for competitors to rest their pistols on the muzzle and magwell unless the wsb distates, "lying flat." I stood my pistol up at this year's Colorado State match, the ROs didn't blink an eye. I didn't get DQed.

I didn't even think this was an issue, I think someone even mentions it in their instructional video as a viable start position to consider (can't remember if it was Matt Burkett or Ron Avery). Bottom line, I think if you try to DQ someone for this in the USA, they are going to win the Arb in record time.

[kdj]

Doesn't it depend on whether the action was safe or not?

Gun standing upright and staying that way => safe.

Gun set upright and then falling over unintentionally => unsafe.

The competitor is expected to display safe gun handling, i.e. know whether or not it is safe for their gun to be placed in this position or not.

There's clear evidence of whether it was safe or not ... if it falls over, it's not.

This seems directly analogous to running with the gun in an unlocked race holster. If it doesn't fall out, you were correct that it was safe to do this. If it does fall out, you were wrong and learn the lesson by getting a DQ for unsafe gun handling.

Why is the table situation any different?

Kevin

[John Dunn]

Is a gun falling over on a table unsafe? So worrisome that it warrants a DQ? I certainly don't think so. The muzzle is in a safe direction, and guns take a heck of a lot more jarring holstered when they hang up going through a doorway, or catch on the arms of a chair.

What if an RO bumps the table and the gun falls over? DQ the shooter? I would hope not.

This seems to be an, "It irritates me, and lacks style points, so you are DQed." vs. "That is unsafe, and you are DQed."

[wide45]

Standing the gun up on muzzle and magwell is not unsafe. If it falls over, but stays on the table, muzzle downrange, no DQ. If it falls off the table, or turns uprange, for any reason, then you must DQ.

Vince has an unofficial opinion, and so do I.