56hawk Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Shot my first match yesterday with an 8 shot revolver. Every stage other than the classifier would have required at least one standing reload for a 6 shot. On the other hand I shot a lot more C hits than normal for me. My accuracy problem was probably just getting use to a new gun, but it got me thinking. How many C hits would you have to shoot with 6 major to make up for a standing reload? I looked up the results from the nationals and figuring a GM with an added 2 seconds for a standing reload would need to average around 10 C hits or 60%. For a low B class competitor with a 3 second reload it would take 8 C hits or 50%. So if I'm figuring things correctly a couple four target array in a match is going to put 8 minor way ahead of 6 major. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 The discussion on this question has been underway for a long time. Stage design is the single most important factor. For matches where the stages are built in mostly 8-shot arrays, the 8-shot is clearly the most competitive choice. For better-designed matches with more mixed challenges, the 8-minor and 6-major options become much closer to parity--with the 8-minor still probably having a slight advantage most of the time. The 6-major revolver gets major scoring (a lot bigger deal than most hard-core revo guys realize), better action on steel poppers, and is slightly faster on average to reload. The 8-minor revolver gets you two more rounds between reloads (certainly a big deal also), and less recoil. You can't quantify the difference between the two platforms without factoring in the biggest variable--stage design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWP Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) I've crunched a bunch of numbers too, and Mike has the same conclusion as I do. Minor is a heavy loss, standing reloads are killers. It's all coming down to stage designs, and how well you deal with those stupid little pieces of steel. Edited February 18, 2014 by MWP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul788 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Lack of variety in stage design (also called "nothing but 4 target arrays") is pretty common. I just reviewed the last three months video of matches I shot. Better than 75% of the stages were 7 or 8 rd arrays. If I did not design it it had 2 targets and 4 steel, 3 targets and 1 or 2 steel, or 4 targets. What I remember from last year at Pasa Park is 7 shots minimum for each array. The stages will be built around the single stack 8 rd. capacity. Given more than twice as many shooting the Single Stack Classic as the Revolver Nationals who will they design it for? I don't fault the match for catering to the bottom feeders, but don't put too much on this one match. Go look at the stages at the Area and Sectional matches from last year. If you don't think 8 shots will be a decisive advantage I have a bridge for sale. Paul Beck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 When stages have a variety of possible ways to shoot them, I still find I'm at an advantage with more ammo. If a 6 shot plan works, it works, but I have that extra option to help me choose the method that best suits my strengths and distracts everyone else from my weaknesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gp100man Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I shot my first match with a 8 rounder and minor and my hit factor and finish place jumped dramatically. I may have just woken up on the right side of the bed that morning, but I found that I was getting way more A's than I was shooting major with my 625. I was able to get the gun down and the sights on target that much quicker. One of the things that worried me was that the reloads would take more time, trying to get 8 bullets to hit their holes and fall. But with 170 grain bullets and short colt brass, it worked just fine. All in all, it seemed to work out and if my first match is any indicator, 8 minor is faster than 6 major (If you hit the A's a good bit) Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I can now see why many were opposed to allowing 8-shot revolver. It does make 6-shot revolvers pretty much obsolete for USPSA shooting. Take a look at the attached diagram for stage 1 of the FL Open. Clearly 8-shot revolvers will do better on it than 6-shot. I did a quick scan of the remaining stages and think I only found one where 8-shot doesn't have a distinct advantage over 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 If so "many" were opposed to the rule change, it never would have happened. The truth is that the vast majority of wheelgunners supported it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gp100man Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 It wasn't like each revo shooter had a vote Mike. More like an electoral college since the AC's did the voting. And we all know or should know the pitfalls of having an electoral college voting system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdpaz Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) While everyone is entitled to their opinion on whether or not they like 8 shot minor, it wasn't pushed through by a mysterious few over the objections of the shooters. As anecdotal evidence that actual Revo shooters were in favor of it I offer this: at Rio Salado Saturday we had six Revo (5 minor/1 major) out of 80 something total shooters and Sunday we again had 80+ total shooters and eight were Revo (all minor). Only one person shot both days so that is 13 different people shooting Revo over the weekend compared to the three we averaged last year. And if you squint real hard you can say that on Sunday we had close to 10% shooting Revo plus I'm getting a lot of comments from people interested in Revo in general and the 929 in particular. Edited February 18, 2014 by bdpaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
56hawk Posted February 18, 2014 Author Share Posted February 18, 2014 Yeah, we had five entered in Revolver. Up from the one or two we usually have. All were shooting 8 minor. Not that we gained any new shooters, just now they are shooting in Revolver instead of Limited 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 It wasn't like each revo shooter had a vote Mike. More like an electoral college since the AC's did the voting. And we all know or should know the pitfalls of having an electoral college voting system. Well, we had a vote right here on this forum, didn't we? Hardly scientific, I'll grant you, but it was probably the most viewed thread on the Revolver Forum ever, and gave us a pretty good indication of the weight of support behind the rule change to allow 8-minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 If so "many" were opposed to the rule change, it never would have happened. The truth is that the vast majority of wheelgunners supported it. Well 3 of the area directors did vote against it. I guess I'm just a little pissed at myself for investing in a 625, which we know is not a cheap investment, and now realizing the 8-shot minor shooters are going to eat my lunch in USPSA matches. I know it's a fine pistol and all that jazz but I didn't buy it to be a safe queen. Perhaps I should quit whining about it and either suck it up and shoot the best I can or sell it and go shoot with the rest of the bottom feeders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Why don't you try it and see if the 8-shot guys really eat your lunch? And if you decide it's too much of a disadvantage, dump the 625 and get an 8-shooter! They're readily available, and there's a decent market for 625s on Gunbroker and the S&W Forum, and elsewhere. (627s are really fun to shoot--and they translate better to ICORE and steel matches.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Z Sr Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 It's simple, all we need is for 7,000,000 "young healthy not sick people" to sign up and start shooting 8 shot minor, (just think of the economic boost and all that 11% Federal Excise Tax that can be used for stuff by the guvmnt) you will all see how great it is, sorry, I am not usually this politically sarcastic and annoying this early with only 1 cup coffee in me, should be a fine day!! Love to everyone that shoots revo, 6 or 8, can't we all "just get along"??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Why don't you try it and see if the 8-shot guys really eat your lunch? I plan on it. I'm already signed up for Alabama sectional and Area 6 matches in revolver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheryl Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Looking forward to meeting you at the Alabama Sectional, Zack. I think we have nine wheelies playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Looking forward to meeting you at the Alabama Sectional, Zack. I think we have nine wheelies playing. Ditto! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropsitos Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 It will be curious to see at the end of the season where things stand. If there is so much disparity I would think they would look into the possibility of 6 shot 45s being scored to something like major+ to even out disparities. I was all into getting a 625 but the new 929 just makes things easier as I already load 9mm and who doesn't generally want 2 more shots? At my skill level it will make things just more enjoyable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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