Facing Downrange

[GeneralChang]

At our local club match the question came up as to what defines "facing downrange" in a start postion during a stage.

Does that mean the shooter is required to begin directly facing the rear berm or can the shooter position himself facing the first target which would, for example, be at approximately the "2:30" position?

I skimmed through the rulebook but didn't see any reference to the topic.

Thanks in advance for any input.

[Vince Pinto]

Does that mean the shooter is required to begin directly facing the rear berm or can the shooter position himself facing the first target which would, for example, be at approximately the "2:30" position?

This brings us back to the topic of whether or not a Range Officer can demonstrate and/or dictate the acceptable parameters of the required start position where the written stage briefing is not 100% crystal clear and unambiguous - see this marathon thread for more information.

In any case, my answer remains the same, namely that the RO can indeed clarify exactly what's meant by "facing downrange", provided that he uses the same criteria and parameters for all competitors. If I were running the stage, "facing downrange" means "having the shoulders parallel to the rear berm".

(Note to self: Go to Defcon 2)

[Garfield]

Sorry Vince, I hate to say this, .... but I agree with you

[Yardbird]

If your face was looking straight on at the rear berm and your toes were all pointed at the rear berm but you were in a stance to take off running with one foot ahead of the other your shoulders would most likely not be lined up parallel with the rear berm but I would still consider this to be facing downrange. I don't think the shoulders alone can be the defining body parts.

[shred]

While I would prefer the MD to specfiy "facing directly downrange", if they want to specifiy, written or not, they can specify.

Why I don't like specifying is situations like this one:

Yes, I know it's a steel stage, but it illustrates my point, so ignore that for the time being)

The start position on these is "facing downrange, wrists above respective shoulders"

Most shooters start out on T1 and sweep across. Many of them set up facing the first target for a quicker draw. But, many lefties set up on T4 and go the other way.

Should a MD not consider this and specify the start position as "facing T1", then they've unintentionally or intentionally hurt the left-handed competitors.

This is why I think the default definition for "facing downrange" should be "If you drew the gun from that position and aimed it where you are looking, you would not break the 180" After all, that's the definition of "downrange" we use for the muzzle, and it's a lot more serious when that's not facing downrange.

[Skywalker]

For me, facing downrange means facing anywhere I could be pointing my gun and not breaking the 180 (i.e. I am not required to turn to be able to draw).

I have shot innumerable stages (whose WSB read as "standing in relaxed position, facing downrange, heels touching the start line) where I had the opportunity to engage several widely spread targets right from the starting position, and I always lined up my body towards the most difficult target or towards the direction I'd be moving on after leaving the starting position: my alignment was dependent on the kind of stage I had to shoot.

I never had any RO telling me that I was not in the required starting position when doing the above.

[Skywalker]

Just a consideration: since terms such as downrange and uprange are used to define the default starting position (8.2.2), and safe/unsafe actions (e.g. 10.5.2), wouldn't it be better to add such terms to the 12.5 Glossary?

[schoonie]

Skywalker,

If we are going to restrict the shooter to a more highly refined but not specified position then the commonly used words will definately need defining.

If the use of "Facing downrange" without any other modifiers or restrictions does not allow shooter to use his discretion within the 180 degree sweep then a change is needed. The same can be said about "Facing uprange".

How many times has a shooter asked about the positioning of the feet, or asked if the head could be turned a certain direction? Let's make it easy for the RO, define the words we use so that interpretation is not required and write better stage procedures. The RO should not feel the need or be obligated to put the "finishing" touches on the stage. The course designer may have wanted the ambiguity!

It may be my imagination but I'm getting the impression that some people want all the shooters to start exactly the same way from the same position and that the 'freestyle interpretations' start ofter the buzzer. This would certainly simplify things by not requiring an extensive and highly refined glossary of terms. There seems to be a question here as to how we want proceed.

[Flexmoney]

I'd hate the see the start positions become too "static".

[Vince Pinto]

The start position on these is "facing downrange, wrists above respective shoulders". Most shooters start out on T1 and sweep across.  Many of them set up facing the first target for a quicker draw.  But, many lefties set up on T4 and go the other way.

To me, "facing downrange" refers to the orientation of your body (hence my use of the shoulders as the reference), but you'd be free to stand along any part of the charge line (unless the WSB requires you to stand, say, in the middle of it with your toes touching a designated area).

This is why I continue to maintain that the RO has a right, for the benefit of maintaining equity for all competitors, to dictate and/or demonstrate the acceptable parameters of the Start Positon and the Gun Ready Position. Those who disagree with my view argue that the WSB must be observed literally, without RO qualification, but unless we start to write marathon, legal grade WSBs, we will have problems with literal interpretations.

Consider typical wording such as "toes touching the black mark on the charge line". As silly as it might sound at first view, if the WSB requires your toes to touch the black mark, then it could be argued that this literally means you must remove your shoes and socks, otherwise how can your toes touch the charge line? The front of your shoes is not your toes.

As I said, this is a silly example, but I use it to emphasise my point why ROs have the right to restrict the amount of wiggle-room permitted by the WSB.

[omnia1911]

.....what defines "facing downrange" in a start postion during a stage? 

Anything short of "facing uprange".

[shred]

This is why I continue to maintain that the RO has a right, for the benefit of maintaining equity for all competitors, to dictate and/or demonstrate the acceptable parameters of the Start Positon and the Gun Ready Position.

Agreed, my point was that there will not be equity for all competitors if the start position is so rigidly defined such that differently-handed or body-shaped and sized shooters can't adapt the start position to their own preferences within the WSB's guidelines.

"RO interpretation of the WSB" becomes even more of a problem when you have multiple RO's on a stage, such as happens all the time at local matches with squad ROs or work-one-day-shoot-one-day matches. In that case the limits must be those of the WSB only to ensure consistancy.

Our problem is the rulebook doesn't define "downrange" beyond the definition of the 180 line. Thus "facing downrange" must also be defined using those terms, or by a RO standing right there for the entire match. Lacking an omnipresent RO, we have to go by the book.

[Jim Norman]

Difficult or impossible as it may be to legislate common sense, I really think we all know that toes touching the black mark means the "toes of the foot wear" that we are currentlyhousing our feets in, not the actual apendages that are attached to and are commonly the first part of the foot to enter the mouth on certain occasions.

So, Standing at rear charge/fault line/FFZ boundary line, facing down range with toes touching the lane would for most people not in mountain building business mean: Stand there your body more or less to your own comfort, facing the rear of the pit within the 180 degree limits, the toes of your footwear touching the line desigated as the REAR fault/charge/FFZ boundry.

While defining things is imprtant and I am one that has commented on arguing the meaning of the word "is", I really think this can go too far.

The sport is freestyle. The designer of the stage wants you in a particular exact position, then he should specify it. Example, we have had a stage where there were two foot prints painted upon a board, the foot prints were large enough for an NBA All-Star to stand on and not cover fully, If I remember you had your heels aligned withthe heels and your feet within the boundries of the foot prints. You then were told, shoulders sqauare to the rear berm, hands naturally at sides.

Simple, no choices were there to be made. Good stage and good start. I wouldn't want it at every stage, but it served here. Same as "Start standing in the FFZ. Gun loaded and holstered in accordance with current rules.

Here I can assume any reasonably erect position, anywhere in the FFZ and face anywhere I want to. This interestingly enough will not always work to the advantage of the gamer. They often out game themselves.

Jim

[Vince Pinto]

"RO interpretation of the WSB" becomes even more of a problem when you have multiple RO's on a stage, such as happens all the time at local matches with squad ROs or work-one-day-shoot-one-day matches.  In that case the limits must be those of the WSB only to ensure consistancy.

Agreed, and this is why it's mandatory at Level III and higher matches to have a dedicated CRO on each stage, for consistency.

[blackdragon]

If they don't have marks for your feet and or toes I agree with Omnia1911 on this one.

Ivan

[shred]

this is why it's mandatory at Level III and higher matches to have a dedicated CRO on each stage, for consistency.

Does it have to be the same CRO or just a CRO? Seems to me I've seen stages with dedicated RO's thrown out for inconsistency before...

[Jim Norman]

And equally important not to have the RO or the CRO issuing his own interpetations of the WSB.

If the stage brief says as an example that he shooter must deposit a bag in a barrel and says he must carry the bag while engaging T1 & T2 but is thereafter silent some might say that he shooter must then immediately deposit the bag. However, the WSB says nothing about when to deposit the bag, so my way to shoot this would be, shoot T1 & T2, drop the bag and shoot all the rest of the targets, Then carefully make my way back to the bag, retrieve it and drop it into the barrel. at which point I am now done and the RO can have me ULSC. If the WSB says the bag must be in the barrel or there is a one proceedural or a one per shot penalty, that would change how I run the course. The problem is, if the RO sees me run the course as I described it and wants to penalize me because he feels I didn't follow the WSB. I should not be penalized because the designer failed to cross every T and dot every I. And the RO is not the person to make those corrections.

Threads from hell never die, they just........

[blackdragon]

It is pretty obvious that it is all about consitancy. The only way to avoid a train wreck is to write it all down! Hence the infinity match tony the tiger mess.

Ivan

[Jim Norman]

But where does the rulebook call for consisstancy in the start?

Jim

[blackdragon]

It doesn't, But it would appear that is waht all the hoo ha is about!???

Ivan

[Jim Norman]

Exactly Ivan. The rules do not say that the start is to be consistant or that the RO or CRO can define the start in their own image. The rules say, read the WSB verbatim. The shooter is then free to solve the shooting problem in a freestyle manner. Part of freestyle is how you start.

That having been said, the qustion is what about ambiguity in the WSB with regard to the start. See the TFH about the Gun on Table start. Some here feel that the RO can tell you where and how the gun is placed while others say that as long as the gun is o the table you are good to go. I fall into the latter catagory. If the WSB says lying on X, then I have no problem with an RO tell me that the gun has to be on the X if it is not and that it must be lying on a side. But if all it says is on table, then the RO cannot tell you, me or anyone else just exactly how to place the gun for the sake of " Consistancy"

THe same thing goes here. Unless we are willing to defing the start as always being standing erect, shoulders square to the backstop, etc. we have to allow for a free style start and I for one am glad of it!

Just like telling me I cannot leave a FFZ, I can't shoot while I am outside, but I can cut across a corner to save time. THink about a tight "L" shaped FFZ, why do I have to run the "L" shape if I can see what I want by cutting across? Would you let an RO decide you can't do that?

I would not.

Jim Norman

[Vince Pinto]

Just like telling me I cannot leave a FFZ, I can't shoot while I am outside, but I can cut across a corner to save time. THink about a tight "L" shaped FFZ, why do I have to run the "L" shape if I can see what I want by cutting across? Would you let an RO decide you can't do that?

Apples and oranges - you cannot compare what a competitor does after the Start Signal, to the Start Position and/or Gun Ready Condition, which is the only time I maintain that the RO has the right to ensure consistency.

The rules say, read the WSB verbatim.

So if you read out "Fingers intertwined on top of your head", and Hugh Jarse from IPSC Tabasco asks you "What does that mean, Range Officer?", what do you do? Tell him it's up to him to understand what that means and accept whatever Start Position he adopts, or do you demonstrate what is acceptable to you?

If the latter, which rule gives you the authority to dictate your version of "Fingers intertwined on top of your head".

[Jim Norman]

It really is this simple.

A question such as "what does intertwined fingerts mean is very different from telling a competitor that they MUST stand in the same place inside the FFZ when the WSB only says standing in the FFZ. There is a caveat, you may not answer an individual question and you must explain any such answer exactlythe same every time. Which is one very good reason not to explain anything you don't have to. If you inadvertently explain something differently to me than to Hugh, I can arbitrate this since you have treated the competitors differently.

If a competitor asked you what does sitting on a chair mean, you can certainly indicate that ones posterior must be in contact withthe seat of the chair. beyond that however if you were to add and your back must be fully in contact withthe back of the chair with your feet flat on the ground and your hands neatly folded in your lap, unless of course the WSB said all this in addition to seated on chair, you would be over-stepping the bounds of good ROing.

Freestyle problam solving starts with the interpetation of any ambiquity in the WSB. I may see a pathway that allows me to shoot faster and more accurately by starting to the right rear of the stage as opposed to the left rear. If you make everyone start in the same place when the WSB does not so specify it, you are altering the course of fire without the permission of the RM.

Jim Norman

[Vince Pinto]

OK, let me try a different approach. Since the topic of this thread is "Facing Downrange", consider an El Presidente, where the WSB says "Facing Uprange". In either case, it's a matter of orientation, and interpretation of the word "facing".

If I stand with my chest and shoulders parallel to the back berm, but I turn my head and look over my right shoulder so that my face is facing uprange, is that an acceptable Start Position to you?

In other words, my interpretation of "facing" only requires my "face" to comply.

[Jim Norman]

Interesting.

We do need to have a definition of uprange and downrange. First, are you actually able to keep your shoulders square to the berm and turn your head past the 180? If your head only turned 179 degrees,but you then rotate your eyes a few degrees further would that be "facing uprange? or downrange?

If you are able to turn your head past the 180, then I would tell you you are not facing uprange, but if your face is turned only to 179, then you are still facing uprange no matter how slightly. The WSb does not state looking straight ahead, it meerly says facing uprange.

So I would not stop you. Go ahead look, just so long as you keep your head at 179 or less.

Jim Norman