Thumb safety

[Flexmoney]

What do we do with the shooter that LAMR in the normal fashion (one in the pipe), but forgets to thumb their safety on? Hostered gun.

Can we simple remind them, and have them correct the problem, or do we have to DQ the shooter?

[omnia1911]

I think 10.5.11 is pretty clear on what to do, but here is an interesting dilemma: 10.5.13 describes a loaded firearm as having a live round in the chamber or having a live round in a magazine inserted in the firearm. It is now possible to have a loaded magazine inserted into a single action self loading pistol, without chambering a round (hammer is not cocked so the thumb safety can't be applied to comply with 10.5.11), and be DQed if you holster the pistol in this condition. Some people actually carry their SA in this condition for safety reasons.

[RKooi]

As harsh as it sounds, it appears that 10.5.11.1 states that is what should occur. I guess if you can remind them before it gets in the holster.....

[RKooi]

Ah but Jon, 10.5.11.1 references the single action self loading pistol with the safety not applied. The thumb safety is the only one that can be applied, right?

[Nik Habicht]

.....and there's been a ruling that the thumb safety is the primary safety, i.e. the one they're talking about in 10.5.11.....

[Nik Habicht]

Can we simple remind them, and have them correct the problem, or do we have to DQ the shooter?

I think, in this instance, that you have to tell the shooter that they violated 10.5.11.1 and have DQ'd themselves. IMHO, the RO never DQ's the shooter --- he simply informs the shooter. The shooter, either through act or omission, had disqualified himself......

[John Baier]

I would have to agree with Nik, But when I give the LAMR command I'll look to make sure they have engaged the safety, if they haven't I'll remind them before they holster their weapon. I last thing I want is for them to shoot their big off, kinda ruins their day

Just my 2 cents

[omnia1911]

8.6.1 does allow for the RO to issue safety warnings after the LAMR command. Would a warning to apply the thumb safety before holstering fall into that category? I think it does. Of course, the RO is under no obligation to issue the warning. Moral of the story: Be kind to your RO. He/she may be your ticket to the final results.

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a

course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage

may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such

warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a

reshoot.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

So many issues, so little beer - here goes:

1. Yes indeed, Rule 10.5.11 is clear, and it would be a match DQ, however we've been discussing the possibility of some improved wording to the rule in this thread.

2. As far as defining "which safety", IPSC issued an official rule interpretation on 6 August 2004, and this is quoted on Page 2 of the thread referenced above.

3. Yes, I agree that an RO is entitled to prevent a competitor from holstering a 1911 genre gun without the thumb safety applied, because it is indeed a safety issue but, if the gun is actually holstered, Rule 10.5.11 applies.

[Flexmoney]

Well, crap.

There have been a handful of new shooters that I would have had to...and likely will need to...DQ (sorry Nik, your right on the terms).

In the past, I have jsut reminded them that they need to put their safety on.

They learn. And, I explain it a bit further after their run...all off the clock.

Usually, they come back to shoot again.

[EricW]

Are we allowed to exercise good judgement at local matches anymore? The rules are getting a little to hard-core-absolutist for my taste. Even a big of a jerk as myself would rather forgive and educate.

[Guest Larry Cazes]

I think we HAVE to be able to use our own judgment on issues like this. Some discretion is indicated and I would issue a warning for a first offense and maybe a match DQ for a second offense. Same thing applies to movement with a finger in the trigger guard when not engaging a target.

[Vince Pinto]

In the past, I have jsut reminded them that they need to put their safety on.

Should we also just "remind" people not to break 90 degrees, or drop their gun, or fire a shot into the ground 12" from their feet during a COF? I don't think people won't return just because of a match DQ, however if they don't, perhaps it's because they don't have the right attitude or understand that safety is our primary goal?

I think we HAVE to be able to use our own judgment on issues like this.  Some discretion is indicated and I would issue a warning for a first offense and maybe a match DQ for a second offense.  Same thing applies to movement with a finger in the trigger guard when not engaging a target.

Very interesting. Of the less than 5% rule variances which appear in the USPSA version of the IPSC rulebook, over 50% are a rejection of IPSC's preference to give a warning for the first occurence of a "lesser" offence. See Rule 8.3.1.1, Rule 8.7.5, Rule 9.1.1 and Rule 10.2.6 for examples.

[Flexmoney]

Nope.

I do think we need an exemption written in for the start postion, however.

As long as we are off the clock, why not just remind the shooter that they need to apply the safety?

(And, yes...if you DQ a newbie, they likely won't be back. That doesn't mean they are unsafe or untrainable.)

[Garfield]

Almost a year ago I was RO-ing a Level III match in Germany.

This match is always characterised by the large number of inexperienced shooters.

At some point a shooter, obviously nervous, performed LAMR upon my command.

I noticed that he hadn't put the safety on when he holstered his SA-pistol.

I had him correct this, explained the "normal" consequences for this, relaxed him and started him for the COF without giving him a DQ.

My action was met with very positive response by the shooters, as well as my CRO (a German IROA CRO). I thought I did the right thing.

Afterwards, on the way back in the car with Yoda (our RD and IROA RM), Yoda and I discussed this case and my call. Yoda told me about a time where a shooter had shot himself in the leg because of not applying the safety. A shot in the leg bleeds like h*ll. Yoda made me understand that there is a reason we have these rules, and that there is no bargaining when it comes to safety. There simply is no place for that in IPSC. We deal with potentially dangerous stuff that is made "safe" because of stringent education and consequent enforcing of ALL the rules, ALL the time, EVERYWHERE.

I still sometimes wonder how I would have felt if that shooter had shot himself in the leg ......

I will always remember that lesson and will never again "tweak" my calls, how much I would like to "help" a nervous / new shooter.

The thing is, when you really think about it, you're helping nobody with a call like that.

[Jim Norman]

Most important here:

Do not apply the safgety while the gun is holstered!!!!!

If you chose during training, to educate, rather than send the shooter to the showers, have him remove the gun carefully from his hoster, point it in a safe direction and then apply the safety!

Remember, the safety and the sear interact, if the right set of circumstances were to occur, it may be that the sear releases as the safety is applied and the gun goes bang!

As to not DQ'ing a new shooter for holstering hot, I always try to slow the LAMR process down and stay on top of the newbie. If a new shooter shows up and runs through everything without being nervous, or questioning, and trys to act like a pro, he is the one that will most likely cause trouble. The nervous guy usually is looking for assistance, just keep him going slow enough to check everything.

Jim

[Vince Pinto]

I will always remember that lesson and will never again "tweak" my calls, how  much I would like to "help" a nervous / new shooter. The thing is, when you really think about it, you're helping nobody with a call like that.

A profound statement, with which I wholeheartedly agree. I will bend over backwards and go the extra mile to help a competitor, particularly a newbie, but if a competitor breaks a safety rule, there is only one outcome possible, and that's a match DQ.

And I gain no pleasure from issuing a match DQ, but it's the best wake-up call I can give, which will ultimately assist the competitor and those around him.

[omnia1911]

Safety warnings occur prior to the offense. After the offense, they are merely safety instructions. 8.6.1 only allows for the warnings, not the instructions.

I'm not going to make a call on how strict the match officials should be with their new shooters. That's their business.

[Tri Burst]

I think we HAVE to be able to use our own judgment on issues like this. Some discretion is indicated and I would issue a warning for a first offense and maybe a match DQ for a second offense. Same thing applies to movement with a finger in the trigger guard when not engaging a target.

I don't think so. There can be NO exception to a safe infraction. That exception could be the downfall of the sport. The rule is quite simple "If you holster a gun that is loaded and you have not followed the proper handling of a gun then you are DQ'ed". If this is a new shooter he should of gone through a safety briefing before he ever stepped to the line at his first match. If this isn't the case at your club then the club you belong to needs to start looking at how they treat a new shooters. This not just for the shooter but for the club and every person on the range when that new shooter steps to the line

I my self have holstered a gun without first putting the safety on BUT before I removed my hand from the gun in the holster I had applied the safety.

[Guest Larry Cazes]

I will always remember that lesson and will never again "tweak" my calls, how much I would like to "help" a nervous / new shooter.

I really don't see this as tweaking a call. I just believe that there is some judgment involved every time you step to the line as an RO, especially with new shooters. As an aid to training new shooters to safely compete in this sport, a stern warning can sometimes accomplish more than an immediate DQ.

[warpspeed]

I really don't like being soft when it comes to enforcing saftey. I have first hand personal experience in the work place where overlooking small things led to a death. Not a good thing. With that said, we need to make sure that the rules are appropriate.

There can not be any "Gotcha" rules where the shooter is tricked into breaking a rule. We have argued to death how poor course design that invites a shooter to break the 180 should not be allowed. If the course description says " Gun holstered, Mag inserted, empty chamber" I'm not going to question it, I'm going to do it. Now, according to the rule book, I'm DQ'd ? WTF is that? I followed the course descripotiopn and I'm DQ'ed becasue some idiot wrote a bad stage? Give me a break.

Now if a shooter loads his gun, racks slide and holsters w/o the saftey on that's a differnet story.

[Vince Pinto]

There can not be any "Gotcha" rules where the shooter is tricked into breaking a rule.

Agreed, and we've already discussed a solution - see the draft of a proposed Rule 8.2.6 in this thread.

[omnia1911]

There can not be any "Gotcha" rules where the shooter is tricked into breaking a rule.

Agreed, and we've already discussed a solution - see the draft of a proposed Rule 8.2.6 in this thread.

New 8.2.6 A course of fire must never require a competitor to prepare a single action self-loading pistol with a round in the chamber and the safety not applied.

Shouldn't it say thumb safety?

[warpspeed]

There can not be any "Gotcha" rules where the shooter is tricked into breaking a rule.

Agreed, and we've already discussed a solution - see the draft of a proposed Rule 8.2.6 in this thread.

Vince agreed with me !!!!!!! WOOOOO HOOOOOO

[warpspeed]

New 8.2.6 A course of fire must never require a competitor to prepare a single action self-loading pistol with a round in the chamber and the safety not applied.

OK but what about a loaded mag in the gun and chamber empty? Then what ?