Home refinishing

[Carlos]

At the request of Carmoney, here is more information regarding black phosphating or black parkerizing. I realized in looking over my photos that: I am a terrible photographer! (Siggy found this out the hard way last time I posted a pic on be.com - thanks again) I took these photos last summer with the intent to show the process and (as you will see) the photographs do a poor job of explaining things. I'll try to fill in the gaps with text, but you will have to use your imagination at times. I also want to add that I am not a gunsmith. I get together with friends and we work together on our projects but I only refinish guns as a hobby and I have never charged a dime for my help. On to the project. In the original thread I expalined:

Traditional zink park is colored from light to dark grey to the holy-grail of park: WWII green. In contrast to the traditional zink parkerizing, I use modern manganese park which is coal black on high carbon steel like the 4140 used to make STI (less black on castings like the Para).

First, our guns as they were (if you look close, you can see the wear-marks from the holsters on the underside of the dust-covers):

click here for larger picture

Two of these guns were blued, shot for several seasons and then the slides were milled with flutes. I'll leave it up to the owners of these guns to come forward here on be.com if they want. The gun with the short/wide SV frame is Tawn Argeris (Team SV) old Open gun that I bought in 2001. I built a limited top end for it and previously parked that; these photos show the park of the lower. The guns been through a lot & still shoots great.

click here for larger picture

This shot should show the bare steel left after the fluting. It also shows how dirty & well used these limited blasters were.

I forgot my camera when I stripped the blueing and bead-blasted the guns prior to parkerizing. Instead, in the next pixture I show a more recent project gun (a single stack Monolith .40 I built) undergoing blasting. Of the sand, oxide and glass beads I have used, glass yields the finest result, though for parkerizing, the differences in media are small. Blueing is another matter & you will want to use glass.

The next photo shows the finished parts for the monolith after blasting:

More to follow (want to make sure these work out). For now, remember that there are many things that can go wrong in the process but one of the most critical steps is surface prep. As I said, I have blasted using forms of media from plain sand to oxide to glass beads. Stripping old blue, cleaning, degreasing, blasting, cleaning, degreasing, - prep is everything.

[Carmoney]

Cool--thanks, Carlos.....I'm looking forward to the next installment!

[shred]

I hate to do the moderator-nag again, but can we all cut the pictures down a bit size-wise, please? Especially if they're not in the Gallery.

If anybody doesn't know how, there's a wealth of help available right here in BE-land.

(As an added bonus, if you have one of those accounts with limited data transfers per day, the pictures will be visible longer before people start getting gripy about 'I can't see your pictures')

500 pixels wide is the BE-suggested limit.

[Carlos]

Mission accomplished, however, the pictures came out too small this time. Looks like I may need to buy one of the photographic manipulating programs & try to figure out how it works; the crappy Comcast website that came free with the cable modem seems to lack the ability to make my photographs smaller. I had hoped that the small photographs would return to normal size if you were to click on them, but that function only seems to work on my actual website. Sorry. If anyone is still interested in the full-sized photographs, you may take a look around my personal webpage where they are stored. Looks like the second installment will be delayed for a while. Regards, D.

[Flexmoney]

Carlos,

It seems I have read elsewhere (no personal experience) that using glass beads might not be the best option. As the beads peen more than they cut...which doesn't give the park solution enough surface area to soak into?

No problems from your experience?

[MoNsTeR]

Doug, this is what you need:

http://www.irfanview.com/

Load up a pic and go to Image->Resize&Resample

[Carlos]

Thanks Monster, Shred & Flex! WIll figure this out & start posting pics as intended.

Flex: It is true that oxide & sand tend to cut steel; they can even begin to change dimensions if they are used too agresively. Glass beads are supposed to peen the surface rather than cut or abrade. Traditional park is supposed to need a fresh steel surface for the parkerizing reaction to take place & one would think that only an abraded surface would react while a peened surface would not.

However, if the blueing is first removed and the steel thouroghly de-greased, the park seems to react just fine with either beads or oxide. The beads I am using now are nearly worn out & they still cut well enough to leave a satin finish & park well.

Thanks again guys,

D.

[Carlos]

I lack pictures of the next step so I'll describe it: use some un-coated steel or brass wire (I use coat-hanger wire) and bend it into forms that will allow you to suspend the pieces in the park bath without exposing your skin or your acid-resistant gloves to the park solution. Make sure that after final de-grease, you do not touch the parts with your hands. This keeps oil off the surface of the metal.

I prefer to pre-heat my parts in an oven heated to about 200 degrees & w/ the door kept open. I have friends who do not bother with this & their parkerizing turns out about as well, but I find that it is trickier to maintain temp control without pre-heating.

Every gunsmith has their own routine; I prefer distilled water while a friend uses tap water. We both use non-stainless muffin tins (now permanently parked balck inside) & we never re-use solution even though many old time gunsmiths scoff at all non-stainless tanks & they use their solution for years. Expert opinions vary.

Anyway, to parkerize, mix the solution per manufactuer's directions or the chemical recipe (artificially age the solution if called for), heat to the called for-temp (in my case, a narrow range between 185 and 199 degrees) using accurate thermometers (I use 2 at once) and imerse the pieces. Some recipes call for leaving the work in the park until it stops fizzing. I leave it in for 8 to 10 min. & find that adequate.

To prevent phosphatization (white spots) its critical to snatch the piece from the solution (remember - its hot acid, hence the gloves & face shield) and plunge it in cold water before any liquid acid can dry on it. I use tap water for the cold water bath. Leave in for 5 min, then coat the work w/ WD-40 as a final fix. The black coating should NOT rub off at all once fixed.

Here is a picture of the 3 guns pictured above fresh out of the water bath & fully parked:

click here for larger picture

And another angle of above:

click here for larger picture

D.

[Rush]

Carlos, thanks for this and its a great read...

What's been the experience for guns which have been hardchromed? will bead blasting remove the hard chroming ok for the gun to be parkerized?

Also, how durable is a parkerized finish? Bluing is ok.. but i find its is more prone to rust and you need to be more careful and pay more attention to cleaning...

Regards,

[Carlos]

No experience blasting hardchrome though I imagine you would need the hardest, toughest media that is readily avaiable (probably common aluminum oxide which I have used). I doubt that glass bead would do anything to hardchrome. You might find more answers HERE by going to the fourm section labled "metal and stock finishes" and doing a search on chrome.

As for park vs. blueing: park is a whole lot tougher & very rust resistant. I use a black park that claims to meet a listed mil-spec which is supposed to include resistance to constant salt water spray for x-number of days, etc. In practice, park holds up very very well on guns that previously showed a lot of the blueing worn off. Park creates a slightly porous surface sort of like a Glock's tennifer surface that retains oil (ever hit a Glock slide w/ gunscrubber & see it change color? Same idea). Even bone dry, the park resists water & rust betterthan blue, although it will never look as pretty as gloss blueing. I often shoot early & late season matches in foul weather (who remembers the Area 8 Championship '04?) and have had zero rust issues since I parked my SV (more than I can say about my holster).

[Carlos]

Here is a picture I took of all three guns after parkerizing, oiling and reassembly:

(click HERE for larger photo)

I think they came out great. I have helped out friends with the re-finish of about a dozen guns so far and with the exception of a lighter color on a cast Para frame, they all came out great.

Next refinishing hurdle will be anodizing aluminum at home.

Rush: check out pg. 184 of the Brownells catalog (new arrivals) for "Super Strip" -it is supposed to strip chrome finish without damaging underlying steel.

D.

[Carlos]

At the suggestion of one of my gunsmithing friends, I am posting this LINK that contains contact info for the parkerizing solution manufacturer I prefer:

Palmetto parkerizing solution. The solution meets mil. spec. and I believe that the manufacturer operates under a military contract to produce the solution in 55 gal. drums; the good news for us is that he also sells the solution in 1 and 4 quart bottles.

The link does a nice job of illustrating the process. Take a look around that site too; Chris (aka Blind Hog) is a Marine veteran and a highly skilled 1911 smith specializing in "snake skin" checkering. Regards,

D.

[EricW]

What thickness of the coating can one expect from parkerizing?

What's the best way to mask off areas that you don't want parkerizing on, such as frame rails that have been hard-fit to the slide?

Is it possible to plug a barrel so that the exterior can be parkerized without affecting the chamber and the crown? (Fill it with paraffin wax or chamber-casting wax?)

How much is the park solution?

Do I *have* to use iron wire, or will stainless steel wire work too?

Thanks!

[robomanusa]

Carlos,

It seems I have read elsewhere (no personal experience) that using glass beads might not be the best option.  As the beads peen more than they cut...which doesn't give the park solution enough surface area to soak into?

No problems from your experience?

Bead blasting yields the least amount of etching, thickness, and protection. Typically with zinc parkos you will not see any dimensional changes but maybe .0002" at most. The greatest dimensional change would come from the part prep method used.

Manganese Parko yields the thickest parko and best corrosion protection and is possible to dimensionally change the part upwards of .002-3" or better but still depends on the prep used whether bead blast or aluminum oxide blast(which is much better).

[Carlos]

Eric wrote: "What thickness of the coating can one expect from parkerizing?"

As RobomanUSA points out, dimensional change is negligible. I have not measured it but it did not affect event the tightest 1911 I have done to date (an unfired 9mm 2011 bushing gun with a Kart barrel assembled by EGW that I first glass bead blasted & then parked).

Eric: "What's the best way to mask off areas that you don't want parkerizing on, such as frame rails that have been hard-fit to the slide?

Again, I would be surprised if the park (even manganese park) amounts to more than a thou & I have never tried to mask off areas. On my own limited .40 SV (pictured above) I wanted a rough blasted exterior but NO blasting media was directed inside the slide because I thought I needed to preserve the internal fitted surfaces (actually, sand can be pretty rough, especially at higher PSI, and if held in one spot long enough, it can change dimensions. It takes experience to avoid this). To my surprise, the non-blasted inside surface finished just as black as the rest of the slide. While the old-timers will tell you to keep a part in the park tank at full temp until it stopps fizzing altogether, I use exactly 8 min. & then into the water bath before fixing.

"Is it possible to plug a barrel so that the exterior can be parkerized without affecting the chamber and the crown? (Fill it with paraffin wax or chamber-casting wax?)

Of course, its not needed on a stainless barrel. Closest I have come was a steel comp that was perm installed on a stainless barrel. Otherwise I hav e not parked barrels (you will want to keep it out of a plain steel barrel). As for how, there are supposed to be several methods that work including very tight (hammer tight) plugs of hard rubber, hardwood or even cork; I have even heard of a method using hi-temp RTV Silicone (a gasket sealant we once used on motorcycle head gaskets) which should work since the temp needed to park is 200 deg or less. I will be trying this on a Galil barrel soon.

"How much is the park solution?" Last time I called it was $20/qt.

"Do I *have* to use iron wire, or will stainless steel wire work too?" Stainless works great. I make a hanger that goes in the FP hole and the front end of the slide; it only contacts the inside where marks can't be seen.

D.

[Carlos]

BTT

[ChrisStock]

BTT indeed ...looking at doing this at home myself soon...this will help.

[bigsaxdog]

great thread! saw the palmetto park solution on "blindhogg's" website a long time ago, was always curious. your work looks great! read something else a long time ago about bluing over the park' finish. you ever do this? how durable do you find this "palmetto park'" finish? you ever do the bake on epoxy over the stuff? starting to build some guns, can't decide on the best finish, and i got alot of questions.......

[Carlos]

Thanks Guys! First off - my main workshop was destroyed when Shooters Paradise burned down last year(though the site is still up: www.shootersparadise.com). Even before that, the blasting cabinet and compressor I used were given away when Phil sold the place, so I am not as active in refinishing as I once was.

On to your Q. though:

"saw the palmetto park solution on "blindhogg's" website"

Palmetto is reportedly going out of business; a friend of mine stocked up on a gallon or two for our use, but if you want the best, then I suggest ordering some soon; one Qt. is about $20 and it will do about a dozen handguns or more. There are alternatives that are nearly as good though I've not tried them.

"read something else a long time ago about bluing over the park' finish. you ever do this?"

No, but I have parked over blueing. You can remove the blueing (blueing is a form of rust) by treating the metal first with a rust remover like Navel Jelly, but that jelly is mostly phosphoric acid which is the main active ingrediant in parkerizing solution. Moreover, the Navel Jelly left a nasty uneven finish that did not even out until I bead-blasted it. Best idea is to bead-blast off the blueing, then immediately park the part after thorough degreasing.

"how durable do you find this "palmetto park'" finish? "

Extremely durable - much more so than blueing or baked on paint. At least as durable as the old green park on a Garand, if not more so.

"you ever do the bake on epoxy over the stuff? "

I don't but a good friend began using Palmetto simply as a substrate or primer for black GunKote. For that purpose, it is excellent, because: 1) GunKote sticks better to dry degreased parkerizing better than any other surface and 2) there is a black corrosion resistant coating under the guncoat in case it is ever chipped.

Regards,

D.

[Ken Mays]

Hey Carlos --

Noticed the KT "AGSN" frame in your blasting photo above.

How'd that one turn out? I've built a few 1911s on these frames, and have another one sitting around waiting for, well, something.

[Carlos]

Hey Carlos --

Noticed the KT "AGSN" frame in your blasting photo above.

How'd that one turn out? I've built a few 1911s on these frames, and have another one sitting around waiting for, well, something.

It became a .40 cal version of a bull-barrel "TRP Operator" 1911. I used a Schuemann S.S. bull barrel and an STI bare/full profile slide, an S&H magwell, and MetalForm 10 round .40 mags. I also did something controversial in building it:

- there are no rear cocking serrations - only front cocking serrations.

I am not 100% committed to front-only serrations, I just like to stir the pot sometimes.

I black parked it and the "gold" line down the center really stands out against the black (the line is a result of each CNC half being vacuum-furnace brazed in a process that prevents any chance of warpage. Alignment pins also maintain perfect dimensions). I just did the easy part and completed the frame/gun.

I'll try to post some pics once we move back into our place after the renovations.

Edited February 15, 2008 by Carlos

[Ken Mays]

Thanks for the update, I'd love to see the photos.

I used to hang around a lot at Roderus's board, and I picked up several of these frames. In my experience they are a bit too soft to hold up to heavy shooting (the slide stop hole has started to elongate, and the braze separated on another, at the rear of the frame at the disconnector) but otherwise they're great.

The braze line does limit what you can do as far as finishes. I tried hot bluing one, and won't do that again. It finally came out OK but it took several tries. The early frames were oversized in a lot of places, requiring too much fitting, but the latest "AGSN" ones are much improved. Too bad the ATF shut him down indefinitely.

The last one I did was a dedicated Marvel .22. I left the dust cover fairly long to give me more space to put a scope mount.

http://www.geocities.com/kemays/marvel.htm

Some others I've done can be seen at http://www.geocities.com/kemays

Edited February 15, 2008 by Ken Mays

[Phudd]

Richard (KT Ordinance/Molon Labe Arms) is actually back in business. All charges dropped, none of his confiscated materials have been returned tho.

Nice lookin blasters!

[want2race]

I've used the Brownells Mag Phosphate with pretty good results. I blast with "what ever's in the cabinet" since I have no other choice. Last time I used water jet media, pretty fine grit, worked very well.

The thickness is around 3000-5000 (microns?), can't remember. It's listed in the free instructions that come with the solution.

You must pre-iron the solution before your first park job though. Iron powder, or I'll blast a spare "dead" slide" and park it first to prep the solution.

The only thing I do different than listed in Carlos' post is that I use a hot water bath immediately after the acid. Then before the part cools I do an oil bath in post treatment oil.

[Dave Gundry]

Thanks for the info Carlos - I think I may try my hand at parkerizing, but I haven't been able to find out if you can park over park? I'd like my Spartan to be less green and more black (the blacker, the better). The stock park has worn through in a few areas, and I've blended the beavertail a bit more.

My only hiccup is that I do not have the ability to blast it first. So, how would the the new park look when done over the well degreased old park? Will there be a large color variation where there is now polished steel?