iroquois Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Hi, Is more lube grooves better for cast boolits? I'm looking at the following two casting molds for 40 s&w. . Lee 6-Cavity Bullet Mold 401-175-TC 40 S&W (401 Diameter) 175 Grain Truncated Cone with 1 lube groove Lee 6-Cavity Bullet Mold TL401-175-SWC 40 S&W (401 Diameter) 175 Grain Tumble Lube Semi-Wadcutter with approx 6 lube grooves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasley Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 The one with 6 grooves is what Lee calls a "tumble lube" bullet. I don't care for them, a lot of people do like them. How are you planning to lube or coat them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intel6 Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 The two types are for different types of lubing and sizing. The single groove is for regular lubing with a wax type lube in a normal lube sizer like a Lyman or a Star. The other version is a tumble lube version intended for use with Lee's liquid lube. You squirt some on the bullets in a plastic tub and swirl around and them pour them on wax paper to 'dry" even though they never really do. In the case of the TL bullet the grooves are really not normal lube grooves and while you could use them with a regular lube sizer they really don't hold much lube. Since you asked this question I will assume you are new to casting, probably want to do some more research on it. the cast Boolits forum is a great place with lots of info. One last thing, that TL bullet has a SWC type shoulder and I found it to be a real PITA when I tried using it years ago. I would recommend against it as it cause some real issues. Neal in AZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I just sold off my tricked out Star and 4 Lyman four banger moulds. I have an RCBS single stage press sitting around doing nothing, so I plan on buying the Lee push through sizer. Then I plan on buying hollow point moulds, setting them up on nails or screws driven through a piece of sheet metal (to make a tray). Then I am going to use an electrostatic gun to powder coat them. Slide the bullet laiden tray into an el cheapo toaster oven and bake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iroquois Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 The one with 6 grooves is what Lee calls a "tumble lube" bullet. I don't care for them, a lot of people do like them. How are you planning to lube or coat them? I'm looking at several lubing solutions. Pan lube Hi-Tek tumble and epoxy paint. I've read several people had sucess using the Eastwood 2k primer with .5 micron HBN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasley Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I have not kept up with these new fangled coatings. I run everything through a lube sizer. Seems like those tumble lube bullets would be the ticket for some kind of coating but that is purely a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuJudge Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) Before you do anything, think about what you are going to do with these bullets. People who are really serious about pistol accuracy probably use swaged jacketed or swaged Lead bullets, not cast. The grease-type lube in fewer grooves is probably the choice of people shooting cast bullets who are more serious about accuracy. The Tumble Lube designs are least capital investment, and generally quickest. Before you spend anything on your own casting equipment, why don't you slug your barrel to find groove diameter and go to the sub forum over at Cast Boolits and ask for some of both .001" over that diameter, which someone will probably be delighted to help with, for the cost of postage. If you are not sure you are going to stick with bullet casting, I would first try the Tumble Lube design. Note that Tumble Lubing will work on the single groove bullets, but the opposite is not really workable. The single groove bullets if used with a grease type lube will require either a lubricator-sizer (some expense and the cheaper are time intensive), or pan lubing techniques (messy). If you are going to shoot the single grease groove bullets, and actually want to use grease type lubes, look into a Star lubricator sizer. Some of Lee's designs come in 6 cavity, but all come in 2 cavity. The 6 cavity .40 molds suck a 20 pound furnace dry very quickly. How many of these bullets are you going to shoot? The only way I can cast for a lengthy period with a 6 cavity .40 or .45 mold is to have a 20 pound I am casting from, and a 10 pound above it running flat out as a melter. If you are going to use an aluminum mold, look on the Cast Boolits website for Bullplate sprue plate lube, available from the Bullshop. It probably is synthetic 2 cycle oil. It prevents a type of adhesive wear between aluminum parts called Galling better than anything else I have found. Lee recommends bullet lubricant to lubricate sprue plates, which does not work well. I have both of the molds you mention, and have used their bullets for Bowling Pin matches. Because accuracy needs are not that critical, I typically use the Tumble Lube design. Please note that bullet casting will save you nothing. Any savings will be eaten up by more shooting. Edited January 8, 2014 by NuJudge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iroquois Posted January 9, 2014 Author Share Posted January 9, 2014 Before you do anything, think about what you are going to do with these bullets. People who are really serious about pistol accuracy probably use swaged jacketed or swaged Lead bullets, not cast. The grease-type lube in fewer grooves is probably the choice of people shooting cast bullets who are more serious about accuracy. The Tumble Lube designs are least capital investment, and generally quickest. Before you spend anything on your own casting equipment, why don't you slug your barrel to find groove diameter and go to the sub forum over at Cast Boolits and ask for some of both .001" over that diameter, which someone will probably be delighted to help with, for the cost of postage. If you are not sure you are going to stick with bullet casting, I would first try the Tumble Lube design. Note that Tumble Lubing will work on the single groove bullets, but the opposite is not really workable. The single groove bullets if used with a grease type lube will require either a lubricator-sizer (some expense and the cheaper are time intensive), or pan lubing techniques (messy). If you are going to shoot the single grease groove bullets, and actually want to use grease type lubes, look into a Star lubricator sizer. Some of Lee's designs come in 6 cavity, but all come in 2 cavity. The 6 cavity .40 molds suck a 20 pound furnace dry very quickly. How many of these bullets are you going to shoot? The only way I can cast for a lengthy period with a 6 cavity .40 or .45 mold is to have a 20 pound I am casting from, and a 10 pound above it running flat out as a melter. If you are going to use an aluminum mold, look on the Cast Boolits website for Bullplate sprue plate lube, available from the Bullshop. It probably is synthetic 2 cycle oil. It prevents a type of adhesive wear between aluminum parts called Galling better than anything else I have found. Lee recommends bullet lubricant to lubricate sprue plates, which does not work well. I have both of the molds you mention, and have used their bullets for Bowling Pin matches. Because accuracy needs are not that critical, I typically use the Tumble Lube design. Please note that bullet casting will save you nothing. Any savings will be eaten up by more shooting. Thanks for the feedback... My goal is to cast bullets for competition and practice. I would like to acheive accuracy if possible. I will be shooting limited 10 division. Looks like Donnie at Bayou bullets is using a single groove with the Hi-tek lube (little pricey). Before you spend anything on your own casting equipment, why don't you slug your barrel to find groove diameter and go to the sub forum over at Cast Boolits and ask for some of both .001" over that diameter, which someone will probably be delighted to help with, for the cost of postage. I like the idea of slugging the barrel. What did you use to slug your 40? Sinkers? Would you suggest a better mold than the Lee 6 cavities or should this suffice once I get a better fit? Some of Lee's designs come in 6 cavity, but all come in 2 cavity. The 6 cavity .40 molds suck a 20 pound furnace dry very quickly. How many of these bullets are you going to shoot? I shoot approx 200-300 rounds a week. I currently have a 20lb melting pot and about 50lbs of ingot. I started casting 12 gauge slugs and decided to cast pistol bullets. At the moment I'm using the 2 cycle oil for mold lube on the lee 12 guage 7/8 slug mold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuJudge Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 (edited) Use pure Lead to slug your bore. Some barrels are just accursed, and don't like Lead. Most will not Lead with a bullet .001" over groove diameter. There are people that claim they can shoot undersize bullets without Leading, but I am not one. I have a 9mm Browning HiPower my father had built long ago which has a chamber that is too tight to admit a cartridge assembled with a large enough bullet to fit the grooves: if this is the case you are stuck with jacketed bullets. To try a number of .40 bullets, lurk on the Cast Boolit board to see what others are shooting, then ask for samples here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?49-The-Boolit-Exchange There are several schools of thought on how hard a cast bullet should be. I am a believer in hard cast bullets, always and everywhere. The people who believe in soft bullets in low pressure cartridges usually believe in hard bullets in higher pressure cartridges, and .40 S&W is high pressure. I use Lead scrap which usually has some Antimony in it, and probably some Tin. I add some more Tin for fluidity of the liquid metal, which gives me better fill out of the bullet, and since I drop bullets from the mold into a bucket of water, they are really hard. Seating a soft bullet in a tight case may size the bullet smaller, perhaps making it undersize. I don't have this problem. Give some thought as to what bullet lubricant you use. The cheapest method is hand lubing, which is not workable at the volume you are talking. Lee Liquid Alox a product of the former Alox Corporation, now owned by Lubirzol Corp, Alox 606-55. It is workable at the volumes you are talking about, and I use it with the .40. There are a lot of different grease type lubes which will work at pistol velocities. The one that probably has the best reputation for working under all conditions is the NRA formula of 50% Alox 2138F, 50% Beeswax, but it is a lot smokey in lower pressure cartridges, and a bit smokey in higher pressure cartridges like the .40 S&W. Edited January 11, 2014 by NuJudge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igolfat8 Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I keep reading where people say you can't tumble lube a single lube groove boolit but I beg to differ because I do and it works just fine in .380, .40, and .45 that I am shooting. I use a modified "recluse lube" formula which is a simple to cook recipe of 45% Lee Liquid Alox, 45% Johnson's Paste Wax and 10% low odor mineral spirits. Low smoke, sufficient lube for up to 1100 FPS, no leading and superior accuracy over jacketed and plated bullets from the usual suspects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikaze1a Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 My 2¢... The big advantage with micro-groove bullets and tumble lubing is that it saves time. In most cases you don't need to size micro-groove bullets, you cast, lube, dry and then load. Saves a lot of time. Conventional single groove bullets do work with LLA, I found it's best to tumble lube lightly to prevent leading of your sizer die, then size and then tumble lube again. The downside to tumble lubing is that Alox, LLA and even blends with J-Wax is that the stuff is sticky. If you shoot USPSA and you ditch your mag, dust and dirt will surely stick to any bullets still in the mag and to any lube residue in your mags. You could wipe the lube off the bullet after seating but that is too time consuming. I tried running in my tumbler after seating but got poor results. I even tried to lube just the sides of the bullets but that took too much effort... Gave tumble lubing a good try but have moved on to conventional sizing and lubing. Looking into the new coatings that have come onto the scene. Kind of like tumble lubing except the bullets aren't sticky. Looks promising. By the way, Alox and it's blends do eventually kind of dry and become less sticky but it takes months with good air circulation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igolfat8 Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 (edited) By the way, Alox and it's blends do eventually kind of dry and become less sticky but it takes months with good air circulation... Try the recluse formula. It drys over night with no sticky residue. Edited January 19, 2014 by igolfat8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 I dip lubed single grove bullets for years. I use the Hi-TEK coating now on the same bullets, it costs about a half of a cent per bullet to coat them. $100 sounds like a lot but you can coat 20,000 bullets and it is much faster. I coat them as they are cast and size them as they are coated, when I am on a roll. Video of casting Video of sizing after coating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmiller Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 I purchased a tumble lube mold for my .40. When I run them through my factory crimp die, it swages them down and the case springs back and some bullets are loose. I did not have this issue with single lube groove bullets! Grrrr! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Hunter Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Don't use the FCD with lead bullets, or soft core coated bullets. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmiller Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 My 40 has a tight chamber, I can run into reliability issues without using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Hunter Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Sounds like you have reliability issues when you use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmiller Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Well, I think that is what is going on. I just started playing with the pistol. I will get it figured out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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