ACR lightened bolt review

[DDustin]

This is my overly wordy review of the ACR lightened bolt carrier by Marvin Pitts. If you need any information or have any opinions let me know.

If anyone’s read any of my posts regarding my thoughts on the ACR you’re aware that, while Bushmaster sucks, I believe the ACR is the only rifle that truly replaces the AR platform. Personally since buying the ACR, I can’t stand using my AR anymore. As I’ve gotten deeper and deeper into 3 gun and other competitions I find the ACR excels there as well. In order to increase support I would like it to be more widely used. I demo my rifle whenever possible but I always seem to get the same thing; everyone loves the feel but it can’t be modded in the way the AR can for competition. Most believe it’ll never be able to take off because of the lack of support. It’s hard to blame them since FN comes to every match with a custom truck and trailer and custom SCARS while Remington usually only has the one ACR and personal vehicles. So I’ve been trying to contact companies about addressing the parts most often brought up.

One of the biggies brought up to me a lot is the fact that you can buy lightened bolt carries for ARs. So I brought it up on the ACR forum after seeing some Remington guys with the bolt lightened. It seemed to get a lot of positive reactions so I brought it up to Marvin Pitts at Nefarious Arms. He seemed really interested in the idea as well as a lot more knowledgeable on the subject than me lol. So I sent him my bolt carrier assembly and all of the photos I took of the Remington bolt. I got it back just in time to test at the last matches of the year including the 3 Gun Nation match at Rockcastle.

My current setup for the test is a 14”(ish) recontoured and fluted barrel with a pinned Surefire brake and the gas port opened to .625, done by Marvin Pitts. I’m using the Geissele Super Three Gun trigger and a Vortex Razor HDII 1-6x scope. The bolt carrier was cut down decently lighter and the recoil spring was kept the same.

I just got back from my last match of the season and so far so good. I've fired 690 rounds so far with 50 suppressed, in 3 matches and 2 training sessions. Some of the tests and matches were under pretty extreme conditions, one match had pretty severe rain, mud, and wind that eventually even turned into hail and a tornado near the match, another was icy, muddy and below freezing (around 20 degrees) that stopped up quite a few competitors’ guns and, for a bit, my shotgun. Also almost all rounds were fired fairly rapidly with the exception of some long range shots. I used 3 different types of ammo, one type was low velocity, like I said 50 rounds were suppressed and it functions very well with every type of ammo suppressed or unsuppressed.

I noticed a very large reduction in recoil. Even at 100yrds I managed to stay on target with decently high rate of fire. During practice I shot a 100 yard steel 8" swinger target at a rate of 1-2 rounds per second, all rounds stayed on target and hit. I actually feel like I could have gone faster because the dot never really left the target at all, it just kind of wiggled a tiny bit.

The only malfunctions I experienced were some stovepipes I traced to a bad ejector spring, and a partial/incomplete bolt lock where the bolt locked back on the magazine instead of the mag stop release once the mag was empty. It happened only once during the last match, slow firing at long range targets when it was 18 degrees with 10-15 mph winds. I'm not sure if this was a gas issue, due to the cold, or just a random thing.

I included a breakdown of the round counts as well as some pictures. I noted the conditions of the tests in the PDF attachment.

(Tornado was not during the match but after it ended that's a typo)

Bolt.





After 690 rounds, no signs of fatigue or odd wear and tear on either the rifle or the carrier group.

http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n506/DDustin5/IMG_20131123_230343_691_zps7e5dc201.jpg
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n506/DDustin5/IMG_20131212_193708_643_zps00190521.jpg

What it looks like in the rifle

http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n506/DDustin5/IMG_20131202_152639_868_zpsc1fa1bfc.jpg

http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n506/DDustin5/IMG_20131126_164056_143_zps82618ecd.jpg

http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n506/DDustin5/IMG_20131116_223538_884_zpsfd9158c8.jpg

http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n506/DDustin5/IMG_20131026_144857_492_zps455466c1.jpg

Only malfunction. Not sure what caused it, but it was only once.
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n506/DDustin5/IMG_20131120_164110_652_zpsc740d4f8.jpg

Night time test

Classifier

For the record, as of now, barrels, caliber conversions, several handguards, stocks/stock adapters, triggers, adjustable gas blocks, even charging handles are available. And soon safeties and CNC lowers in Standard and AK mags. Coupled with the far superior ergonomics and modularity, I think that it has a real future in 3 gun so long as the aftermarket maintains its current pace and more people use it. I use mine successfully in competition, training, and even hunting by changing barrels and furniture. People compare it to the AR platform saying the platform should have matured by now; I say it has. Maybe not as much as the AR but honestly 10 times faster. The AR platform is over 50 years old and in the amount of time it's taken the stock ACR to develop new OEM gas blocks, firing pins, stocks, handguards and even new brass deflectors and ejector springs to improve ejection angle, the AR was just getting a forward assist and couldn't run for shit. Handguards, barrels and stocks didn’t change till the 90s and face it, they sucked. Major improvements didn't come around till around the 40 year mark. Even the SCAR with full military support and being almost twice the age of the ACR has only just managed to half ass a decent length rail and a stock that doesn't need to be wrapped in duck tape. But it's still rocking the same crappy ergonomics, reciprocating charging handle (that they promised to fix), and short ass sight radius combined with a crazy high sight plane. I believe the ACR is the future if people let it be. Once you get in decent time with it and start modding its imperfections like the factory trigger, you’ll find it’s a major improvement to the AR platform.

Edited December 14, 2013 by DDustin

[fastshooter03]

Is this a review or sales pitch or AR/SCAR hate mail or what?

Shoot whatever you want but I don't think you can do much better than what the AR platform has to offer-accuracy, reliability, shootability, availability and affordability.

Sure the ACR looks cool but "it's a major improvement to the AR platform"... 9,999 out of 10,000 wouldn't agree with you or maybe the number is higher??

Just have fun and shoot.

Nick

[Alaskapopo]

I agree with Nick. The ACR is highly overrated in my opinion.

[openclassterror]

What do the accuracy groups look like? I am not against the platform, but the ones I have seen in use have problems getting good hits on 300+ yard steels. Is yours more consistent? Soft and Fast are great, but in a match with 20sec FTNs on the long range stuff and a par time, a couple of no hits can take you right out of the match.

[DDustin]

It's just a review, I just feel pretty strongly about this rifle so it has a rant. It seems like most compare it to 3gun rifles like the JP or Stag as opposed to looking at it like a factory rifle you'll have to mod for matches. Out of everything you listed the AR has, the ACR has pretty standard accuracy, it's way more reliable and way cleaner than my ARs, and it's much more shootable. I'll give you the availability and affordability, but that has more to do with the current market. I picked up mine for $1400 before all of the craziness that's only $200 more than my last AR and conversion kits like the 300blk are half that. I stick with saying it's a major improvement over the AR. It's flatter shooting, the ergonomics are a big improvement, it's really clean while you're shooting and after. And being able to pop the barrel off to switch calibers to hunt or shoot a match is, while not a must have, pretty great too. The AR shoots gas in your face and you spend forever scraping bolts and cleaning. Those pictures of the bolt carrier I posted are with over 600 rounds without cleaning it. The only thing I actually have to clean is the barrel and chamber.

I love my ARs but I'm not going to let that keep me from seeing improvements. I'm also not going to compared factory 3gun modded rifles to the factory ACR. The ACR is designed as a "fighting" rifle, every other rifle designed for that needs to be modded for 3 gun. When I compare my factory AR to the ACR, the ACR gets it hands down. Everyone has their opinions on what they like to use and that's good but I'm basing mine off of the fact that I've spent a ridiculous amount of time with both systems. You don't have to love the ACR but I'm not basing it off of looking at posters and playing airsoft. I know it's not ideal right now but from what I've experienced, the base platform is significantly better than the base platform of the AR, and it has potential to do great.

---

The factory barrel is like most factory AR barrels. In fact it is just an AR barrel. Before cutting mine down it shot 1MOA with factory bulk ammo and was very consistent on 300yrd steel, but after cutting it down it seems more sensitive to ammo and the groups have opened to 1.5-2moa, but I did have the factory barrel recontoured, fluted and cut to around 14" with a pinned and welded brake. But that's my fault. I'm getting a JP barrel in January for it though. So in that regard it's just like the AR; the factory barrel shoots like every other factory barrel I have and you can swap it out if you need more.

[DDustin]

delete

Edited December 15, 2013 by DDustin

[Alaskapopo]

I get you like the gun I have a friend with one and he eventually sold it when he got serious about 3 gun and got a Stag 3g. You say its way more reliable than AR's but frankly a good AR's are not that trouble prone. My JP has yet to malfunction my Noveske that is now my back up rifle also always ran as have the rest of the AR's I own. They don't need to be clean that is a myth. They just need to be run wet. I was really excited when Magpul first released pics of the Massad before it got sold off and became the abomination it is today as the ACR. Heck even the military decided not to replace the M4 that says a lot. If you like the gun enjoy but your not going to convince anyone to drop the AR. There is a reason the AR dominates the game. One draw back to the ACR and SCAR is the large bolt mass moving back and forth far heavier than an AR's bolt carrier group. Not good for staying on target or for optics.

Pat

Edited December 15, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[Finbox]

To me a 3 gun AR is a lightened varmint rifle with a brake. Highly accurate and reliable.

The ACR is FAR from that in the accuracy department.

I have shot the ACR, and have a TAVOR they are neat rifles (TAVOR is pretty much a bullpup ACR)

"Everyone has their opinions on what they like to use and that's good but I'm basing mine off of the fact that I've spent a ridiculous amount of time with both systems. You don't have to love the ACR but I'm not basing it off of looking at posters and playing airsoft. I know it's not ideal right now but from what I've experienced, the base platform is significantly better than the base platform of the AR, and it has potential to do great."

I have 6 years in service of this country with the AR, and while i have not been in combat. i have many friends that have many tours under their belt and all the front line combat vets I know of that compete in 3 gun run AR's....their "fighting" rifle is the same platform as their comp rifle, and that is for good reason.

When ever threads start like this, with a weapon competing with the AR platform it always boils down to "this is a new system look how clean the bolt is!!!" If that is the only positive of the new system its not worth talking about.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Finbox

[Vespid_Wasp]

I like seeing new rifles like the SCAR, ACR, and the Tavor becoming available. Perhaps someday one will offer enough benefits at a price point to make it worthwhile. But it's going to have some large shoes to fill. I see more shotgun malfunctions than any other in 3-gun. With the pistol a distant second and the rifle third. The AR platform is undeniably reliable, even when we 3-gunners take it to the ragged edge searching for a 'flat' rifle.

Stoner's design is a very mature technology, with a huge array of configurations available, including the typical '3-gun treatment'. I think JP has done more to advance the recoil mitigation aspect than any other single manufacturer. I haven't shot another semi-auto 5.56/223 rifle that comes close to an AR with a good comp, adj gas, LMOS carrier, and captive spring.

The ACR wasn't designed to be good for 3-gun. That doesn't mean it can't be a solid option. But it has a tremendous amount of ground to make up, as the AR platform is 40+ years ahead and the 3-gun developments for it are a decade ahead.

[Vespid_Wasp]

My squadmate turned my phone vertical and filmed this with a potato, and the video is chock full of me making mistakes.

But the rifle doesn't move.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Vespid_Wasp

[DDustin]

I get you like the gun I have a friend with one and he eventually sold it when he got serious about 3 gun and got a Stag 3g. You say its way more reliable than AR's but frankly a good AR's are not that trouble prone. My JP has yet to malfunction my Noveske that is now my back up rifle also always ran as have the rest of the AR's I own. They don't need to be clean that is a myth. They just need to be run wet. I was really excited when Magpul first released pics of the Massad before it got sold off and became the abomination it is today as the ACR. Heck even the military decided not to replace the M4 that says a lot. If you like the gun enjoy but your not going to convince anyone to drop the AR. There is a reason the AR dominates the game. One draw back to the ACR and SCAR is the large bolt mass moving back and forth far heavier than an AR's bolt carrier group. Not good for staying on target or for optics.

Pat

To me a 3 gun AR is a lightened varmint rifle with a brake. Highly accurate and reliable.

The ACR is FAR from that in the accuracy department.

I have shot the ACR, and have a TAVOR they are neat rifles (TAVOR is pretty much a bullpup ACR)

"Everyone has their opinions on what they like to use and that's good but I'm basing mine off of the fact that I've spent a ridiculous amount of time with both systems. You don't have to love the ACR but I'm not basing it off of looking at posters and playing airsoft. I know it's not ideal right now but from what I've experienced, the base platform is significantly better than the base platform of the AR, and it has potential to do great."

I have 6 years in service of this country with the AR, and while i have not been in combat. i have many friends that have many tours under their belt and all the front line combat vets I know of that compete in 3 gun run AR's....their "fighting" rifle is the same platform as their comp rifle, and that is for good reason.

When ever threads start like this, with a weapon competing with the AR platform it always boils down to "this is a new system look how clean the bolt is!!!" If that is the only positive of the new system its not worth talking about.

I was Army Infantry up until 2007. I'm not going to do the whole combat tours and me having a combat MOS argument with you but I can only assume you're insinuating that I've always been just a recreational shooter. And by me saying I had time with the system, you thought I meant only at a range with paper targets. If so, you're off, my job wasn't exactly sitting at a desk and by time with the platform I really meant a ridiculous amount of time doing ridiculous things with both the M16 and M4 weapons system. While I was in the infantry my competition and training rifle was also a bone stock AR, it would be stupid for me to train with anything else when my life depended on my proficiency with that system. In fact it's the RRA rifle I mentioned before that I used while in the Army and I've got over 15k in that rifle alone.

The ACR is just as accurate as a standard AR but with a better recoil impulse as it uses a factory AR barrel and trigger. It also has many advantages other than running really clean. I imagine people just mention that because anyone who's spent any time on the rifle in the field know that scraping bolts and firing pins is a pain in the ass. And contrary to those that say you don't need to clean them, I've seen quite a few fail in the field, no matter how wet they were run. They didn't work until they were stripped and cleaned. The ACR (and SCAR for that matter) does not need to be "run wet", they just run. Out of habit I still carry around a tube of CLP I used to need to get the AR running but I haven't used it once with the ACR. Personally I think the mentality that "ARs need to be clean is a myth" is irresponsible. Possibly akin to the people I met in the Army that would claim body army doesn't really work. Fact is, as I've mentioned, I've seen otherwise and more than enough people have documented having rifles go down in a fight. Not to mention Vietnam should serve as a lesson. Also being clean is just a side effect of the gas system that increases reliability due to the fact there is no carbon build up and no gas rings to go bad and no real heat being cycled to the bolt. The bolt carrier group and barrel are tested to last over 60,000 rounds, conversely my last AR barrel only lasted 12,000 and the bolt needed to be rebuilt around 6,000. The ACR has a number of issues that are currently being ironed out but it's not just a modern looking AR, it's unique and has a large list of improvements to the current system.

I like seeing new rifles like the SCAR, ACR, and the Tavor becoming available. Perhaps someday one will offer enough benefits at a price point to make it worthwhile. But it's going to have some large shoes to fill. I see more shotgun malfunctions than any other in 3-gun. With the pistol a distant second and the rifle third. The AR platform is undeniably reliable, even when we 3-gunners take it to the ragged edge searching for a 'flat' rifle.

Stoner's design is a very mature technology, with a huge array of configurations available, including the typical '3-gun treatment'. I think JP has done more to advance the recoil mitigation aspect than any other single manufacturer. I haven't shot another semi-auto 5.56/223 rifle that comes close to an AR with a good comp, adj gas, LMOS carrier, and captive spring.

The ACR wasn't designed to be good for 3-gun. That doesn't mean it can't be a solid option. But it has a tremendous amount of ground to make up, as the AR platform is 40+ years ahead and the 3-gun developments for it are a decade ahead.

Well said.

I would like to mention that this was simply a review at my attempt at making a good platform better suited for 3gun. Coming in to a review thread to rag on the OPs choice of rifle because it doesn't match your own is a pretty big dick move. I respect everyone here but it is what it is. I didn't ask for your opinion on the rifle. If you were to give an opinion it should be a helpful one such as other things to develop to make the rifle suitable or even technical opinions on lightening the bolt.

On that note, I'm considering lightening it more. Probably cutting a chunk out of the top and some out of the bottom. What would be the signs that I've gone too far? As far as I've read, bolt bounce is more a concern with FA and takes a really light bolt.

I was thinking of removing material in one or more of the marked areas. Sorry for the crappy MS paint but it's all my wife has and my computer is in the shop.

Edited December 16, 2013 by DDustin

[Alaskapopo]

Not trying to be a dick. The ACR and SCAR are not really new technology. They are based on the AR180 which was designed to be a cheap substitute for the AR15 in countries that did not have the technology to build an AR. They have some pros and their cons as well. Generally gas piston systems are not going to be as accurate as direct gas AR's. I have a SCAR and while its a ok rifle I wish I would have picked up a JP AR in .308 instead hindsight being 20 20. To each his own but to make opinion statements as fact like the ACR has a better recoil impulse than the AR or "far superior ergonomics and modularity " for example is inviting people to make a comment on your preferred rifle choice because quite frankly your statements at best are opinion and at worst simply false.

Happy three gunning. Just seems like you're trying to re-invent the wheel. I would use the ACR if its what you have and like but I would be careful about modifying it and dumping a ton of money into it trying to make it into something it can never hope to be. Kind of like your admitted mistake with the barrel. Sounds like an expensive lesson. I used to think the Benelli M4 was a great shotgun for three gun and I found out I was wrong. Also its a fact that the AR does not need to be clean to run. One well known instructor put well over 14000 rounds through an AR without cleaning it before it would not run. All he did was keep it wet. This mirrors my own personal experience. The myth that the AR has to be clean to run is from people who simply don't know how to properly maintain an AR and are holding on to old beliefs that have been proven false. Anyway I wish you luck and hope you find what your looking for out of your ACR.

Pat

Edited December 16, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[DDustin]

Not trying to be a dick. The ACR and SCAR are not really new technology. They are based on the AR180 which was designed to be a cheap substitute for the AR15 in countries that did not have the technology to build an AR. They have some pros and their cons as well. Generally gas piston systems are not going to be as accurate as direct gas AR's. I have a SCAR and while its a ok rifle I wish I would have picked up a JP AR in .308 instead hindsight being 20 20. To each his own but to make opinion statements as fact like the ACR has a better recoil impulse than the AR for example is also kind of inviting people to make a comment on your preferred rifle choice. Happy three gunning. Just seems like your trying to re-invent the wheel. I would use the ACR if its what you have and like but I would be careful about modifying it and dumping a ton of money into it trying to make it into something it can never hope to be. Kind of like your admitted mistake with the barrel. Sounds like an expensive lesson. I used to think the Benelli M4 was a great shotgun for three gun and I found out I was wrong.

Pat

The only statement I made that could be construed as fact is regarding the superior ergonomics of the ACR, which I stand by. Otherwise I frequently said things like, "in my opinion", "I believe" and "I think". The ACR having better recoil and being flatter shooting is a frequent opinion or people who use them. On the other hand you spoke about the bolt mass being an issue with the rifle staying on target being a fact but it's definitely not. Many people would disagree. Shooting one of my stock ARs side by side with a stock ACR for a couple mags really made it hard for me to want to shoot the AR. Don't get me wrong in all of this, I love my ARs, that's why I have so many. I just don't like shooting the AR compared to the ACR anymore.

Also I believe you're off about the ACR and the SCAR being developed based off of the AR180. The AR180 was designed by Armalite, ironically, not as a cheap option, but as an improvement to the M16 and was the basis for the SA80, Aug and G36. The SCAR if I remember correctly uses a gas regulation system based off of the M1 design, a bolt similar to the G36 and the lower receiver was modeled after the AR, but the rifle itself wasn't based off of anything in particular. The ACR was based off of nothing and everything. They took design pieces from a lot of different systems. Technically it being short stroke piston operated is like the AR180 but quite a few rifles use that system.

The barrel is a standard AR barrel it would have happened with any barrel. My mistake was deciding to go with a 14" and fluting it. It had nothing to do with the ACR or the barrel. Saying it could never be a good 3gun rifle is a bit of a stretch. Sure I can't buy a pre-made 3gun ACR but that has nothing to do with rifle itself. If a stock AR can be turned into a great 3gun rifle like the JP or Stag, then the ACR can as well. It's working with all of the same good features as the AR while fixing most of the issues with the AR. It also accepts standard AR triggers and barrels. As far as I can tell there's nothing that can be done to an AR to make it 3gun ready that can't be done to the ACR as well. But there are things that the ACR can do but the AR can't. In fact people go out of their way to modify their AR with features already built into the ACR like gas buster charging handles, side charging handles BAD levers, monolithic rails, adjustable gas regulators, ambidextrous fire controls, and attempts at cheek risers getting around the rear charging handle. The ACR may be a young platform but you write as if I'm trying to make an AK ready for 3gun when it really is just an improved AR. It doesn't lack any features necessary for this sport and the common parts you would swap out are readily available in the AR market. Like I said I'm running a Super 3 Gun AR trigger and in a month a JP barrel also for an AR. If you want to give me suggestions of what to do to further progress this weapon system, by all means go for it. But saying that it's impossible or even all that much more difficult than an AR is just not accurate. I know because I've done it to both. The only things I could think to do that were not available is a low mass bolt carrier and there are 2 companies developing them now, one is the one in this review.

Edited December 16, 2013 by DDustin

[poortrader]

DDustin nice write up. We all have our opinions. Some seem to be stronger than others. We definitely can't say that Bushmaster doesn't give back to the sport.

[APL-G35]

Riddle me this? If the ACR could be made to be competitive in 3 gun, why doesn't the new 3 gun team bushmaster has run them? I thought it was a cool rifle when magpul developed it, and the idea of just changing barrels to go hunting or whatever is pretty cool but I don't see this rifle making any inroads to the 3 gun community.

[DDustin]

I couldn't say why Bushmaster's team doesn't run it. I'm not on that team. Possibly because they sell a larger amount of ARs or possibly because the Bushmaster team members picked their own rifles and likely have minimal experience with the ACR short of trying out the stock version. Remington has supported this rifle more than Bushmaster, in fact Remington has continued to develop the rifle and send the improvements to Bushmaster but Bushmaster sits on them. Bushmaster's lack of support for the rifle in 3gun is a topic of constant discussion. It's just a case of the Freedom group picking the wrong company to sell the civilian version. Remington on the other hand does run the ACR and has made a lot of progress with it. Their 3 gun rifle actually has help push the aftermarket for the ACR. Also I never said it is a great 3gun rifle, I said it has a better base platform than the AR to become a great 3gun rifle. Asking why it isn't used by anyone in particular is an unanswerable question.

A serious question would be the one derived from my last post...

Saying it could never be a good 3gun rifle is a bit of a stretch. Sure I can't buy a pre-made 3gun ACR but that has nothing to do with rifle itself. If a stock AR can be turned into a great 3gun rifle like the JP or Stag, then the ACR can as well. It's working with all of the same good features as the AR while fixing most of the issues with the AR. It also accepts standard AR triggers and barrels. As far as I can tell there's nothing that can be done to an AR to make it 3gun ready that can't be done to the ACR as well. But there are things that the ACR can do but the AR can't. In fact people go out of their way to modify their AR with features already built into the ACR like gas buster charging handles, side charging handles BAD levers, monolithic rails, adjustable gas regulators, ambidextrous fire controls, and attempts at cheek risers getting around the rear charging handle. The ACR may be a young platform but you write as if I'm trying to make an AK ready for 3gun when it really is just an improved AR. It doesn't lack any features necessary for this sport and the common parts you would swap out are readily available in the AR market. Like I said I'm running a Super 3 Gun AR trigger and in a month a JP barrel also for an AR. If you want to give me suggestions of what to do to further progress this weapon system, by all means go for it. But saying that it's impossible or even all that much more difficult than an AR is just not accurate. I know because I've done it to both. The only things I could think to do that were not available is a low mass bolt carrier and there are 2 companies developing them now, one is the one in this review.

What makes a stock AR better than a stock ACR? You can do the same for both rifle to get it 3 gun ready but you would have to do less for the ACR as a lot of the things you would change on the AR are built into the ACR. Other than "I can buy a 3 gun ready JP rifle" what would make the ACR less suited to 3 gun, specifically?

If I take one of my ARs and my ACR and want to set it up; For the AR, I'd get a low mass BCG, gas buster charging handle, replace the buffer, swap out the trigger, barrel and handguard. I'd also add an adjustable gas block, upgraded extractor, battery assist lever, brake and if I have a ton of money a Id get a monolithic upper, side charging handle and probably a stock with a riser. The ACR uses the same exact barrel and trigger, I'd get a low mass carrier, longer handguard and upgrade the extractor spring which is the same as the AR. But I don't need a buffer, it has an adjustable regulator and more precise ones are available, I don't need a battery assist because all of the controls are at the finger tip. I don't need a gas buster because there is no gas to shoot in my face, it's already side charging with a non-reciprocating charging handle, it has a monolithic rail. There are no gas rings to go bad and replace the parts last longer and yes when I hunt I can switch to my 300blk barrel in about 5 seconds.

So what does the ACR have that makes it bad for 3gun use and what doesn't it have that the AR has (other than a mature aftermarket)?

It's kept the good features and built in features that people go out of their way to fix on the AR. If you prefer the AR fine, I get that, it's a great platform, i love it, we all love it. But if you're going to say the ACR can never be a great 3gun rifle, you can't do it with out a real answer to that question. After market maturity and the possibility to get a pre-made 3gun rifle aren't answers to that question. Neither is availability of the rifle or price. Availability and price are fluid and will change as we get out of this period we're in. Like I said mine was around $1500 in Jan 2012 and it wasn't too hard to find then. Also OEM parts are readily available, I just order the newer brass deflector and the parts for a conversion kit a couple weeks ago. But either way, It's a technical question about the rifle.

Edited December 16, 2013 by DDustin

[APL-G35]

I guess running an ACR is akin to drag racing Hondas. Yeah it can be as fast but it costs a ton of money to do it in comparison. You are looking at custom bolt lightening when you can just buy a drop in part. Sure the ACR can be as good but for most people it's easier to buy drop in parts and it's a well known and refined platform. You also claimed the barrels are good to 60k and an AR to 12k but then say they are basically the same barrel? I get it you like the ACR but I don't think your going to win anybody over, the AR is just to refined at this point and can be made to shoot extremely flat.

[Flexmoney]

DD,

Thanks for posting and putting the info into circulation.

[DDustin]

I guess running an ACR is akin to drag racing Hondas. Yeah it can be as fast but it costs a ton of money to do it in comparison. You are looking at custom bolt lightening when you can just buy a drop in part. Sure the ACR can be as good but for most people it's easier to buy drop in parts and it's a well known and refined platform. You also claimed the barrels are good to 60k and an AR to 12k but then say they are basically the same barrel? I get it you like the ACR but I don't think your going to win anybody over, the AR is just to refined at this point and can be made to shoot extremely flat.

It wouldn't be akin to drag racing a Honda. To use that analogy correctly, it would be akin to SCCA road racing a 2014 Mustang 5.0 as opposed to foxbody 5.0. It's an improved more efficient design with a newly developing aftermarket compared to a cheaper older less efficient design with matured aftermarket. You can do all of the same things with both Mustangs but you'll end up doing a lot less to get the same or better from the 2014, especially in the suspension and brakes department.

The stock ACR barrel is an AR barrel in design. As in you can drop in an AR barrel into the ACR or an ACR barrel into an AR. The melonite coating and hammer forging is what allows it to go over 60,000 rounds. The material, rifling process and the coating of the barrel is was determines its life span not the weapon it's designed to fit. But the bolt and carrier of the ACR last much much longer because of the overall design of the ACR prevents heat and carbon build up and removes the weak parts from the bolt like the gas rings. The bolt and bolt carrier also has the same coating.

Also the bolt carrier will be a drop in part as soon as it's done being developed and tested which is what this review is all about. And the AR itself isn't refined, it's aftermarket is. It's base design isn't better than the ACR at all it can just be made to be better and honestly for the same price. I already listed what would need to be done to each for 3gun. You would have to do more to an AR and everything that you would do to your AR either uses the same exact parts as the ACR or is already done from the factory. The only exception is the bolt carrier and handguard which one is being developed in this thread and the other typically runs cheaper than all of my AR handguards. My point is that you gave no technical reason as to how the ACR is inferior and basically ignored my post by saying that it'll cost more to do the same thing when in reality it actually costs you less since you need to change less. I'm sorry, but like I said, you can not prefer the ACR and stick with the AR but you can't say it's inferior in stock condition to a stock AR because technically speaking it's the other way around. If you like I can post a price list comparing what my AR cost me to make 3 gun ready and what my ACR cost me.

Either way convincing people to use this rifle would be nice but it wasn't the point of this thread. It honestly seems like you may not have really read the thread at all. This was a review about a part for this rifle along with some questions about the development. I didn't ask if you wanted to switch to the ACR, but if you insist on ragging on it needlessly then at least have a legitimate reason as to how the rifle is as inferior as you say it is. All you've said is what it takes to modify it but you clearly don't know what that is.

[DDustin]

Back to this question.

I would like to mention that this was simply a review at my attempt at making a good platform better suited for 3gun. Coming in to a review thread to rag on the OPs choice of rifle because it doesn't match your own is a pretty big dick move. I respect everyone here but it is what it is. I didn't ask for your opinion on the rifle. If you were to give an opinion it should be a helpful one such as other things to develop to make the rifle suitable or even technical opinions on lightening the bolt.

On that note, I'm considering lightening it more. Probably cutting a chunk out of the top and some out of the bottom. What would be the signs that I've gone too far? As far as I've read, bolt bounce is more a concern with FA and takes a really light bolt.

I was thinking of removing material in one or more of the marked areas. Sorry for the crappy MS paint but it's all my wife has and my computer is in the shop.

I'm also wondering what are the typical causes and signs of carrier tilt? I don't foresee an issue with that because of how much contact the carrier has with the rails and how tight fitting its is. But I'm not an expert and that's a guess so I'd like to know.

[Vespid_Wasp]

I'm not particularly familiar with the overall design of the ACR. I suspect you also have to contend with the reciprocating mass of the piston itself, which I assume is not insignificant. It would be interesting to compare the total mass of the ACR carrier/bolt assembly and the gas piston, with that of the carrier/bolt assembly and buffer in an AR. Specifically the JP or other lightened components like the new boomfab carrier.

I think that the attributes of the ACR that accomplish some of the design goals, like a cleaner and cooler action, necessitate using some parts that are going to unavoidably add mass.

I would be curious to see what could be done with your ACR if you had one of the gas regulators with a wider range of adjustment.

Thanks for sharing your review. It's always interesting to read about new platforms. At the end of the day I think that the Indian is more important than the Arrow. But I can't deny that go-fast-gear is fun to try and learn about.

I'd like to shoot the ACR side by side with my rifle someday.

[topgunpilot20]

Thanks for the review. I like the ACR and also wish it gained more widespread use. The ACR does indeed shoot flatter than a stock non-competition AR, and I would probably chose a stock ACR over a stock AR for 3 gun. However, that's irrelevant since I'm not forced to shoot a stock AR. No matter how much mass you remove from the ACR carrier it still can't approach what can be done with an AR given the different operating systems (not that I won't be watching the results with interest).

Carrier tilt shouldn't be a problem since the ACR carrier rides on rails and the recoil spring is more in line with the piston.

Edited December 16, 2013 by topgunpilot20

[Chuck Anderson]

Back to this question.

I would like to mention that this was simply a review at my attempt at making a good platform better suited for 3gun. Coming in to a review thread to rag on the OPs choice of rifle because it doesn't match your own is a pretty big dick move. I respect everyone here but it is what it is. I didn't ask for your opinion on the rifle. If you were to give an opinion it should be a helpful one such as other things to develop to make the rifle suitable or even technical opinions on lightening the bolt.

On that note, I'm considering lightening it more. Probably cutting a chunk out of the top and some out of the bottom. What would be the signs that I've gone too far? As far as I've read, bolt bounce is more a concern with FA and takes a really light bolt.

I was thinking of removing material in one or more of the marked areas. Sorry for the crappy MS paint but it's all my wife has and my computer is in the shop.

I'm also wondering what are the typical causes and signs of carrier tilt? I don't foresee an issue with that because of how much contact the carrier has with the rails and how tight fitting its is. But I'm not an expert and that's a guess so I'd like to know.

Carrier tilt (this is my opinion only. Please don't crucify me like you guys have done to the poor OP) can happen in AR's equipped with a piston system. Basically the AR DI system was developed to have the force of gas centered in the BCG. When you retrofit that existing design to a piston system with the force coming at the top of the BCG instead of the center you can force the BCG to tilt or not ride precisely centered forward and back. Some designs have fixed this better than others. I've heard stories about holes worn clean through the side of upper receivers. I'm using the PWS system for work and they use an oversized BCG. Not much but enough that it doesn't tilt. Never had any problems with this one. I wouldn't think you'd have issues with carrier tilt in an ACR/SCAR system since they were designed from the ground up to be piston systems.

[Therealkoop]

You'll never win the hearts and minds of the populace by arguing. You need to go to a bunch of big matches and kick everyones ass. Pretty soon everyone will be saying "OH HOT DAMN I NEED ME ONE OF THEM!".

[ctay]

I've never had a chance to shoot an ACR and have only seen one in real life. I don't think anyone is intending to "rag" on the ACR but rather point out that there is some significant growth needed in the design for it to be a real competitor to the AR in 3 gun. You are in the process of doing some of that development now. One thing I know - if the ACR proves to be a better platform for 3 gun you will see loads of people switch. Competition craves the newest and the best.

Right now I can't find an ACR for much under $2k and there just isn't enough going for it to overcome the price difference for me. I'm building a new 3 gun rifle and I'll be at $1365.40 all in with really good parts (less glass of course). Would need to lower the cost of an ACR a lot to get there.