Comp Tac soon to be illegal?

[vincent]

This thread was originally about Comp-Tac gear. I've known Gregg the owner of Comp-Tac for years and if the new rules have any impact on his line of products it will be rather ironic.

Gregg only makes carry holsters. Therefore if he ends up having to update his line to stay current with IDPA he will in essense be creating products for competition for the first time. However IDPA discourages people from purchasing products in a gear manufacturers competition section.

Hopefully IDPA will play nice with the holster manufacturers and give them fair warning of any upcoming changes so that they can prepare product updates if needed. It's hard enough to stay in business in gun related industries as it is.

[Ted Murphy]

Gregg only makes carry holsters.  Therefore if he ends up having to update his line to stay current with IDPA he will in essense be creating products for competition for the first time.  However IDPA discourages people from purchasing products in a gear manufacturers competition section.

Perhaps, but people's opinons on what is considered suitable for carry will vary.

I remember early on in IDPA people lining up to give the powers that be (match directors, safety officers, etc) a piece of their mind cause their favorite holster got sleighted on the list. All had their argument for why it should be approved just as the BOD had their reasons it should not be.

[ronin45230]

What about magazine carriers and concealment garments?  Any rumors?

Mag carriers will have some form of retention flap , secured with a snap or velcro.

Also - vest that have more than 3 pockets total will not be permitted , unless they have a blaze orange safety panel located across the back of the shoulders.

You are kidding, right? That would be total BS.

We need less rules.... not more. I thought it was all about "use what you carry in the real world". Who in their right mind carries flap mag holders, lol ........... and specifying the number of pockets on your clothing? That’s just plain insane

[Mark Perez]

yes , I was kidding ..

Mark

Edited December 11, 2004 by Mark Perez

[smokshwn]

I will apologize up front for posting the following details anonymously but I feel it wouldn't be fair to post someones name in a public forum. I am posting it for the purposes of our discussion. I will grant that this conversation is technically hearsay so feel free to torch me up a little if you feel the need.

So in a conversation tonight with a holstermaker who's main focus is IDPA rigs, he stated that the holster rumors are true. The no light in the belt channel will be the standard. He retooled 2 of his offerings and is considering upgrading all of his holsters that customers have bought at his own expense. In our conversation he also spoke of a very big name sponsored shooter who is practicing with an IWB rig because of the scrutiny his gear received at this years nationals.

I posted this because I feel that IF the holster rules due in fact come to pass then this is a major step in the wrong direction for IDPA. Not from the standpoint of the actual rule persay but in the effect that it will have. IDPA's stated draw was a shooting sport without equipment races and a forum for regular folks to compete on a budget. Replacing equipment just cost workaday Joe match fees for a couple of months. In my personal situation I am out 2 $100 comp tac rigs, 3 or four UM holsters and pouches that I use for loaners, not too mention the cost of replacements. I just don't see how IDPA can avoid turning away existing members over this.

How bout some thoughts

[Duane Thomas]

How 'bout waiting til we see the new rule book before we freak out?

[smokshwn]

I don't think anybody is freaking out. The rule is on its way. More than one person has first hand knowledge of holster makers looking at making changes etc. Is it not possible to have a discusion of the possible ramifications ?

If you want to believe that the upcoming holster rule will not effect anything fine.

The question remains, how do people feel about the possibility that they will have to replace expensive equipment in order to stay compliant with IDPA?

Craig

[tightloop]

If this is correct, it will be another nail in the coffin.

[MikeyG23]

IDPA HQ seems to be more concerned with THEIR definition of "Tactical" and "Suitable for everyday carry" than they are what people are actually carrying. While I don't use my Comp Tac Locking Paddle for an everyday carry rig I have done it in the past and will most likely do it again. If I have to replace holsters for both my IDPA guns I had just as well, and maybe just as soon, replace them with a CR Speed rig and trade my IDPA guns for a limited gun. If any of this information is true, and I have no reason to believe that at least some of it is, then I may go away from IDPA and start shooting USPSA. This is not what I want to do but if I'm forced to spend more $$ due to an arbitrary equipment ruling then I may well do just that. I don't know about any of you but I do not personally know anyone that has been consulted about any rule rewrites. It may be BW's sport but I can and will vote with my money elsewhere if that is what it takes.

FWIW, I called IDPA HQ yesterday to renew my memebrship and asked about the new rule book. They stated that they were trying for a release around the first of the year but there was nothing definite about that as yet.

HQ is out of touch with at least a portion of the membership. I realize that IDPA or for that matter any other shooting sport cannot be all things to all people but IMHO they are more concerned with dictating doctrine than they are with promoting a shooting sport.

[vincent]

IDPA HQ seems to be more concerned with THEIR definition of "Tactical" and "Suitable for everyday carry" than they are what people are actually carrying.

Yep.

[Duane Thomas]

The question remains, how do people feel about the possibility that they will have to replace expensive equipment in order to stay compliant with IDPA?

Expensive equipment? A Blade-Tech Standard Belt Holster costs $59.95. A Cen-Dex Storm is $64.95. A Comp Tac paddle is $49. My wallet's not exactly cringing. Maybe we could find a few kydex holsters out there that cost more, I'm not saying they don't exist, but the bottom line is we're not looking at esoteric, rare, expensive equipment here. We're looking at inexpensive, easily available, easily replaceable equipment....that may or may not be illegalized in any event.

I truly think HQ is gunning (pun intended) for "rule beater" holsters. They're not looking to ban the sort of kydex concealment rigs so many of us actually use on a daily basis.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Duane, the problem seems to be (and it crops up in every sport, not just shooting) is that one guys "rule-beater" is another guys "problem solver." Every single list-approved IDPA holster I've ever tried has been spectacularly uncomfortable to me: I have a high waist, long arms, a discernable waistline, and large glutes from years of side-thrust kicks. Anything approved shoves the rear of the slide or sights into my floating ribs.

If someone who is low-waisted, short-armed, cylindrical and flat-butted is going to tell me what is "tactical" and what is "concealable" with no recourse to equipment solutions, then I have a problem. Usually in the lower back, after wearing an approved holster for a couple of hours.

[tightloop]

Duane and Patrick

Instead of you guys debating the issue on the forum, who don;t you each write an article and present it to the various publications for which you pen items...might get published and "you know who" might see it and take the hint..

[diehli]

Duane and Patrick

Instead of you guys debating the issue on the forum, who don;t you each write an article and present it to the various publications for which you pen items...might get published and "you know who" might see it and take the hint..

I like the way this man thinks.

See if you can get it in the Tac Journal.

[tightloop]

IDPA equipment rules are getting to be like the Military.....Don't Ask...Don't Tell

Pinned grip safeties on 1911's

tungsten guide rods

Dumping rounds down range

Holsters that show light between the holster and body

WWB ammo that won't make minor

Garments that won't cover the bottom of the holster..

Air Gunning

Agressive soles on shoes or boots

knee pads under your pants

[smokshwn]

Duane,

Are you even giving any thought to what you are saying? Yes withing my shooting budget $120 for a comp tac setup doesn't compare to my travel, ammo, or gun layouts however. So my objection lies more in the principle of having perfectly serviceable eq. rendered obsolete only to replace with something that will be at risk of dictated obsolescence.

You seem to be forgetting at who IDPA is aimed at within the original context. I do a lot of recruiting for my club and if you would could you kindly explain to me what I should tell a guy with 3 kids who has a very limited budget what he should do about buying new holsters. Considering that one of the things I sold him on was the ability to shoot this sport without the need to be buying specialized eq. all the time.

This rule is a major shot in the foot of IDPA in order to mandate their own idea of tactical.

Once again here's simple and effective:

1. Holster must cover trigger and provide adequate retention for safety

2. Holster cannot be worn with a forward cant.

3. Holster must cover up to 1/4" below chamber opening in slide.

4. When holstered the gun grip will be no more than .5" away from the closest point on the shooter's body

5. Holster must not interfere with a safe draw.

5. Holster and gun must be completely concealed by chosen cover garment.

This list took 30 seconds to come up with. It affects no currently approved holsters and allows competitors the ability to choose a platform that works witht their body type.

Why does IDPA feel the need to do more than this? Kill the gamers? Get back at the guys actually trying to win? what? When there are simple solutions to problems it makes one question the motives of those who choose the complex route.

Craig

[Ted Murphy]

Craig,

How do you legislate issue 4? As close to the body as possible is more than a little grey. I can see some poor MD trying to argue that issue with a shooter. It is not an easy criteria to legislate or enforce.

As you said, "it affects no currently approved holsters". I'm sorry but I have an inkling the BOD WANTS to affect some of the currently approved holsters.

I've seen the criteria coming for a long time. Problem is that the holster makers got their holsters approved then started futzing with them and getting more offset, huge belt tunnels, etc. For years IDPA trusted the holster manuf to be true to the design they approved. They were not. As a result, IDPA decided to look into an alternate system of approving holsters.

When those holstermakers return the designs in question back to their orginal specs they most likely will fit the criteria IDPA is going to lay down.

You folks may well be mad at HQ if your holster doesn't make muster but I do believe some of the holstermakers are responsible as well. True they altered their designs to suit customers requests but they should have considered there may be consequences to doing this. Seems for some folks the customer and not the holstermaker will pay.

And I've never met an IDPA shooter who only had one holster. If a shooters holster does get flagged I'm willing to bet he's got something else that will work till he finds a new holster for him.

Ted

[smokshwn]

Ted

#4 is fixed and posted tell me what you think.

I understand about personal requests fo holstermakers, home mods etc. and the inevitable creep by holster makers.

My opposition is to the fact that for some reason IDPA HQ cannot seem to relinquish control on how to make/do/create something.

For instance give me a problem(gun carrying device)

Give me a set of rules (the ones I posted)

Let me figure out how to build,buy,or modify a holster that performs and complies.

Instead of the IDPA allowing multiple solutions that competitors could use to accomadate their body type, comfort, use preferences, IDPA mandates that we only have one road to follow.

Not to mention I would argue that most shooters don't have the requisite box of holsters. I think that is reserved for a smaller more active population of us idiots who shoot way too much but still not enough

Craig

[Ted Murphy]

For instance give me a problem(gun carrying device) 

Give me a set of rules (the ones I posted)

Let me figure out how to build,buy,or modify a holster that performs and complies. 

Well you are going to get a set of rules that your holster must follow. Sorry they don't jibe with what you think they should be. You are going to get to solve the problem within their standards, so you got 3 out of 4 of your desires.

As far as them not "relinquishing control", they are in fact, the governing body of the sport. Their job is to control things. You may argue their effectiveness but it is their job to be in charge and set rules.

If the internet stories are to be believed, a basic holster like my blade-tech scabbard will still be legal, as will be the safariland holster TGO uses. Both are used by competent gunhands of varying body types. It will seem to affect some of the outrigger type holsters though.

Ted

[Duane Thomas]

IDPA equipment rules are getting to be like the Military.....Don't Ask...Don't Tell

tungsten guide rods

Dumping rounds down range

Holsters that show light between the holster and body

WWB ammo that won't make minor

Garments that won't cover the bottom of the holster..

Seems to me like those things are blatantly illegal.

[Duane Thomas]

Duane,

Are you even giving any thought to what you are saying?

Yes, actually.

You seem to be forgetting at who IDPA is aimed at within the original context.

No, I'm not. It's to use street guns and street holsters in an action shooting sport.

if you would could you kindly explain to me what I should tell a guy with 3 kids who has a very limited budget what he should do about buying new holsters. Considering that one of the things I sold him on was the ability to shoot this sport without the need to be buying specialized eq. all the time.

"Specialized equipment?" The rules change being considered is against specialized equipment. If your example shooter is using a normal carry rig, he won't have a problem.

"All the time?" IDPA has been around since 1997. Aside from the "no holsters that can be canted back" thing (understandable because such rigs so adjusted aren't concealable under anything less than a raincoat) this is the first change to the holster rules I can think of. So, two changes in seven years, both intended to deal with holsters that don't meet the original purpose of the sport. Those wacky rule changers. What are they thinking?

[smokshwn]

What I was talking about with respect to two and three above is IDPA emphasizes that the normal guy can go buy a minimum amount of simple, inexpensive equipment and participate without breaking his shooting budget. I can think of at least three or four guys in my club who have recently (within 6 mos) started shooting, who will need to purchase replacement equipment. With their limited budget and not having fully developed a dedication to IDPA, this is a very big deal breaker. Especially, in this area at least, when you consider that they can simply change the weekend they are shooting, drive to the same club, and be welcomed with open arms in USPSA production. No eq. replacement and shooting with the same core group of guys, just giving their money to different org.

To most shooters who are here in this forum, a little eq. exchange is not the biggest deal from a financial standpoint. Compared to ammo budget, reloading setup, limited and open gun costs, we really can't argue that $50-$100 will keep us from shooting. But to the more occasional/new shooter I think this decision will have a bigger negative effect. I gues we'll see.

[Sgtsvi]

I try to help new shooters in IDPA when they ask what to buy. I will always tell them to buy stuff that works and pay a little more for it now, instead of buying 2 or 3 different holsters that dont work. I use comp tac and have always endorsed Gregg's products. He stands behind his gear and supports the game. He is always at the Texas state regional and championsip matches. I have shown my holsters to several guys at my department. They use comp tac holsters for off duty carry and love them. I would hate to be forced to buy new holsters for my SV and glock that I use in IDPA. I cant see where my locking paddle comp tac would violate any equipment rules in IDPA. I think it is more secure and safe than some of the loop style and IWB holsters some people use.

Dave

[smokshwn]

Dave

Exactly. I agree with you on the quality of Greg's stuff. As of right now the locking paddle is totally compliant, but if you take a look there is light in the belt tunnel which according to the proposed rules would make it illegal.

I don't think I will be very happy when this ruling comes out.

Craig

[Tokarev]

Wilson has a bunch of his leather stuff on closeout on his website. Is he getting ready for the new rules?