Time to Form New Organization????

[Practical Use]

It seems like any board, discussion group, or guys talking at the range, all seem to eventually get around to how unresponsive HQ is. The the conversation moves to "the founders ....., and therefore, play by the rules or don't play."

Personally, I have enjoyed the sport. I have written to IDPA HQ on several occasions, and never even had the courtesy of any response. (If I did not respond to my clients and customers, I would not be in business for long.)

(Rant mode: What about an area coordinator for California? Don't bother to answer anyone's letters, emails, or telephone calls! Rant mode: in suspension, not off yet.)

Is it time to form a member organization??? Sure, it would be a pain in the ass, a bunch of work, and considerable expense. However, in the long run, would a tactical sport be better off as a member organized and operated sport?

The "United States Defensive Pistol Association?"

I do not fault the IDPA founders. They went to a lot of time, effort, and expense, and therefore have a right to impose their will. I get really sick of Wilson bashing. I do not even remotely believe that he acted as the corner stone just to sell pistols. I would bet money that his time and effort have cost more than the revenue generated. HOWEVER (shout), how long can the organization go on as a "controlled" corporation, without any member input.

If the sport is to survive, something needs to change.

Ed Vernon

A00041

[EricW]

Why not come back to USPSA? A "tactical" division could be added for guys who want to shoot using cover, etc. Pick some reasonable criteria for rules and come shoot our matches again.

We'd love to have you.

[Mark Perez]

Funny that you would mention that.

I'm scribbling down a rough draft of ideas that combines some of what was said in the other posts .

I'd like to send it to some of you guys for review if you want to have any input .

Let me know .

Thanks

Mark

[Practical Use]

I still shoot USPSA a couple of times a year. I think the production catagory was an attempt to mitigate the effect of IDPA. The problem was that the USPSA BoD missed the "tactical point." If USPSA decided to add a tactical division, the problem would be to design matches that could accomodate all the existing divisions and the tactical folks.

[EricW]

PracticalUse,

Nothing is perfect, but the tactical guys could simply be squadded together and could make whatever minor stage mods are needed during the matches (adding barrels barracades for cover, revised stage procedures, etc.) then reset the stage for subsequent squads. If things pan out and the division became popular, you guys could have the "USPSA Tactical Nationals."

There's so few competitive action shooters, the last thing anybody needs is another organization to dilute the pool yet again. It's time for tactical shooters to make amends with USPSA and likewise, for USPSA to accomodate legitimate concerns of defensive shooters, so that they have a place in the organization again. In order to make it work, everyone involved would have to put their egos aside as well as unrealistic notions of building Utopia (just like IDPA has not turned out to be).

JMHO as someone who will never shoot IDPA as it is.

[Bob Hostetter]

Regarding the issue of an AC for California, several So Cal clubs have contacted IDPA HQ's and at least 2 people have offered to step up and take on the job. Both times, that I am aware of, that HQ was contacted the response was, "well, we already have an AC, but we will look into the problems you have listed". We never recieved any further response from HQ, and nothing has changed with our "current" AC.

[Practical Use]

Bob,

If HQ is responding that they already have an AC, they are not telling the truth. Ron was the AC and he resigned months ago.

Ed

[JD45]

I don't know what the hell they are thinking, but not answering emails really chaps my ass. I thought I was the only one.

[rmills]

I don't know what the hell they are thinking, but not answering emails really chaps my ass. I thought I was the only one.

IDPA HQ has always answered my e-mails. Sometimes it takes a few days but they do reply.

As far as forming a new organization, go for it. The rest of us want to keep IDPA as it is and not let it become USPSA "like".

No sight pictures (or airgunning), FTDR penalties to keep the gamers and range lawyers in check, equipment rules that promote shooting ability and not equipment races, and most importantly, friendly (non "I've got to win at any cost") people, that's why we shoot and enjoy IDPA.

[BigDave]

Actually, there is nothing in the USPSA/IPSC rules that forbid anyone from using concealment or using cover like it is done in IDPA. If the "tactical" (oh, how I HATE that word!!!) portion is that which you are interested in then the overall placement, by default, is irrelevant.

The fact that IDPA is run completely at the top is very consistent with how the matches run as well. We'll tell you what to do every step of the way, and if you don't do it our way we will penalize you. They don't want the shooters to think, just do. Subjectivity is ultimately in the hands of the SO and the at HQ. I'm not saying that is good or bad, that's just the way it is.

Speaking for myself, and only myself, I don't like being told what to do if I don't have any input.

I don't believe that CDP was set up as the Wilson Division so that Bill could sell more guns, that is just silly. But, I do find it a bit ironic that there is a division that caters specifically to the 45 ACP 1911 and that is what Bill is in business to build and sell. There is a bit of impropriety that seems to be difficult to hide from.

I'd really hate to see IDPA splinter, just like I hated to see (in retrospect, I wasn't shooting at the time) IDPA form out of USPSA. If people would just learn to talk to one another and hear each other out once in a while and be respectful along the way, it all seems to work out.

[MikeyG23]

Take a look at my post in the "What Would You Do" thread. I believe that the only way IDPA will become totally responsive to the "members" wishes and/or needs is for it to have an elected rather than selected BOD. I appreciate what Bill Wilson has done but I think that it's time for a change.

FWIW, I don't have the answer, I just have the question at this point....

[scandog]

I know of several shooters that have added a vote to your cause by not renewing their memberships. I am actually thinking about doing the same thing. I am all for a new and improved IDPA that is a true member run organization. I think IDPA was a great start. The problem is HQ stopped caring about the "Members". There is no excuse for the way we are ignored. Rmills, if you are getting all of your questions answered, you are an exception. To say you just have to wait, is 3 weeks reasonable? That was how long my last email took to get a reply. Then the answer was not even close to what the book said. I am not even sure if the correct question was addressed. The reply was more confusing than the LGB.

I don't think we need to form a new organization. Just don't send in your membershi dues. If enough people do that, Bill W. will feel it in the pocket. All the advertising he is trying to sell in the TJ will be effected. It would be a good start.

One more comment. I don't care if Bill W. runs this himself and gets all the profits. That is not the issue. If he would talk to the AC and MD from around the country, look at the issues and in a timely manner address them. He can have another check from me.

Thisnk about this. If you go into a store and they only have one register open and the line is 20 minutes long, do you go Back? That is about where I am at right now except the line is about 2 months long.

Daryl

[tightloop]

Well personally, I am not adverse to forming a new organization...I can't tell you the times I have heard someone quote Hackathorn when he said "...if you don't like it, why don't you form a sport of your own..."maybe it is time someone did..

I think I could use the LGB as a starting place and put together a set of rules in less than a month...

anyone else....

[Sgtsvi]

I would like to see some consistancy in the enforcement of rules. A really nice guy and good shooter received an FTDR on the first stage, first day of the match for round dumping. I know the guy and he is not a cheater. He told the SO that he doesnt look at bullet holes in the target, he looks at his sights. He still received the penalty and didnt place too bad in the overall standings. Several shooters that shot the day before said that the SO was just giving procedurals for the same incidents.

The most glaring disparity occurred when a CDP shooter who shoots for a big name 1911 maker dropped a mag from his belt on a string of fire. The SO picked up the magazine and handed it to him when he went dry so he could finish the stage. This shooter placed very high in the match. One of my buddies and I asked the match coordinator a hypothetical question about a shooter getting a mag handed to him to finish a stage. The MC laughed and said "I dont think I have ever seen anything like that before." I then told him that it just happened about 20 minutes ago. His response was " I guess that SO did him a favor."

I hope I get the same consideration if I drop a mag at a national event in the future.

[BillD]

Well personally, I am not adverse to forming a new organization...I can't tell you the times I have heard someone quote Hackathorn when he said "...if you don't like it, why don't you form a sport of your own..."maybe it is time someone did..

I think I could use the LGB as a starting place and put together a set of rules in less than a month...

anyone else....

Jump on it. I would love to see it.

[Buff87]

There is an area person for socal; after the state match in 2003 a group of nocal clubs requested to have a nocal area (we have at least 8 active clubs and thougt we needed our own person) and that request was granted installing Ron Durham as area coorinator; I was part of that movement and organized the request process. Ron resigned in May (I believe) and I was asked by several of the nocal clubs to take the position. Written requests for me to replace Ron were sent by most of the nocal clubs to IDPA during June and early July. I've talked with hq several times and they have not made a decision whether they want to have a nocal coordinator and if so whether they want me; I have no idea why they have taken this long to act. I just wanted to clarify this situation; hope this helps.

Tom Frenkel

CL 129

[Mike_Kerr]

I don't think a new organization is the way to go. Shooting sports are fragmented enough right now. A groundswell of letter writing by the general membership might help. Shared responsibilities outside of the existing power position might help. Argh!!! Growing pains.

Regards,

[Guest Larry Cazes]

Not meaning to fan the flames but I suspect a member governed/run non-profit organisation is the way to go.

[Allgoodhits]

Many good comments and voicing, but most, likely a waste of time. The tail does not wag the dog. The Organization IS run from the top down. We all have vote in National Presidential Elections. Does it really cause immediate change?

If you don't like IDPA, shoot IPSC. If you don't like that shoot NRA Action. If not that there is PPC and Bullseye. Free pistol, rapid fire etc. No shooting event can ever be all things to all people. Thank goodness we are all diferent, and sometime really different. I have to eat different foods to satisfy different tastes.

TACTICAL? You do not create the COF to be tactical. You figure out the best likely tactical way to shoot the COF. There is a huge difference, and what may be tactical from a survivability standpoint for you may be slightly or significantly different for you than it is for me. We have differing body sizes, physical abilitities and shooting skills. What may be safe or easy for you, may be almost impossible and dangerous for me. There are fundamentals, but survivability sometimes violates fundamentals as the situation changes. Tactically, smoke can change vision significantly when there is more than one shooter and one of those shooters is SHOOTING at you.

You want real tactical? Most PDs need help, and certainly there are plenty of tactical matches in Iraq and Afghanistan for you to attend. ALL of our shooting is a game. Enjoy it for what it is, because that is all that it is. It cannot be made into something it is not. Yes, improvemnets may be able to be made, but spend that time shooting. More trigger time and less keyboard time. You'll be amazed at how much you can learn with your finger on the trigger than you can with your fingers on the keys!

BTW, I read a fair amount here but post little. I am a master, high master, grand master in five different pistol disciplines. So I have tryed a lot of stuff. It is all shooting, but they offer different things for you to overcome, and yes there are as many different guns too.

If you want your own organization, just do it! Complaining about this one is not likely going to accomplish anything. By the way, that green grass on the other side has to be mowed too!

Be safe, shoot lots, life is short!

MJ

[rmills]

Many good comments and voicing, but most, likely a waste of time. The tail does not wag the dog. The Organization IS run from the top down. We all have vote in National Presidential Elections. Does it really cause immediate change?

If you don't like IDPA, shoot IPSC. If you don't like that shoot NRA Action. If not that there is PPC and Bullseye. Free pistol, rapid fire etc. No shooting event can ever be all things to all people. Thank goodness we are all diferent, and sometime really different. I have to eat different foods to satisfy different tastes.

TACTICAL? You do not create the COF to be tactical. You figure out the best likely tactical way to shoot the COF. There is a huge difference, and what may be tactical from a survivability standpoint for you may be slightly or significantly different for you than it is for me. We have differing body sizes, physical abilitities and shooting skills. What may be safe or easy for you, may be almost impossible and dangerous for me. There are fundamentals, but survivability sometimes violates fundamentals as the situation changes. Tactically, smoke can change vision significantly when there is more than one shooter and one of those shooters is SHOOTING at you.

You want real tactical? Most PDs need help, and certainly there are plenty of tactical matches in Iraq and Afghanistan for you to attend. ALL of our shooting is a game. Enjoy it for what it is, because that is all that it is. It cannot be made into something it is not. Yes, improvemnets may be able to be made, but spend that time shooting. More trigger time and less keyboard time. You'll be amazed at how much you can learn with your finger on the trigger than you can with your fingers on the keys!

BTW, I read a fair amount here but post little. I am a master, high master, grand master in five different pistol disciplines. So I have tryed a lot of stuff. It is all shooting, but they offer different things for you to overcome, and yes there are as many different guns too.

If you want your own organization, just do it! Complaining about this one is not likely going to accomplish anything. By the way, that green grass on the other side has to be mowed too!

Be safe, shoot lots, life is short!

MJ

Ditto...............