BHill Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Hello everyone. I have enjoyed practicing with my 625PC but I am still uncomfortable entering a match due to chamber skipping showing up after 3-5 stages pushing hard. I will peen the forward edge of notches back or smooth out depending what I am seeing but moving very little metal. On closer observation it seems the cylinder notches and ramp are cut about 1/8" +/- offset aft of where they should be. The stop rides the edge of the ramp all the way down and only contacts about half of the notch itself while in the firing position( full engagement into the notch). I have replaced the cylinder stop and it only has maybe 800 rounds on it. My choices as I se it are below please and add any options I may have overlooked. 1. I can pull the cylinder and cut the notch longer and expand the ramp width. 2. I can remove the apex hammer and spring and restore to factory dysfunction and send it to Smith and Wesson to hopefully get a cylinder fit properly. 3. Buy a new 625pc cylinder and hope it is cut correctly. Not sure how long that will take. 4. Reshape cylinder stop to ride in the ramp to speed the engagement time but reduce the surface area. Thanks everyone. I really look forward to shooting this competitively very soon. BHill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Unfortunately, your gun is "normal". The cylinder, when properly cut, does not align well with the stop. That doesn't prove your cylinder isn't made incorrectly, but there's a 100% chance that any new cylinder you buy will look just like it. As for your "options": 1. It sounds logical to cut the notch longer to get better engagement, you might try that and report how it works; of course reconturing the ramps and the cylinder where it would need to be cut would be a challenge. 2. I actually tried this once. S&W installed a new cylinder with incorrect barrel gap and excessive endshake. It took me a couple of months to study and learn why the gun wouldn't run at all. Bubber helped me learn this in Fort Smith one day. 3. As I said above and as I learned in #2, the notch doesn't align with the stop and S&W makes them all that way. 4. S&W "fitted" the stop they installed in my repaired gun. I threw it out because it started throwing by even sooner than an uncut stop. Some guys operate the trigger better than me and don't have these problems. I switched to Ti cylinders from the 325PD some number of years ago (I forget) and I haven't changed a cylinder or a stop since then. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Pictures... http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=32978&hl=n+frame+picture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHill Posted October 24, 2013 Author Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) Waltermitty thank you for sharing your experience on your similar issues and the cure. Those are some nice looking revolvers you have there. I am curious though as it appears your notch and stop alignment are far superior to what I am seeing on mine. Are the Ti cylinders cut different or did you have to cut it down to fit? As it stands now I am looking at each option as follows. 1. I can pull the cylinder and cut the notch longer and expand the ramp width. Most likely scenario and seeing what it will take.2. I can remove the apex hammer and spring and restore to factory dysfunction and send it to Smith and Wesson to hopefully get a cylinder fit properly. No confidence they can make it happen.3. Buy a new 625pc cylinder and hope it is cut correctly. Not sure how long that will take. May need to get one anyway as I may mess the first one up;-)4. Reshape cylinder stop to ride in the ramp to speed the engagement time but reduce the surface area. I am going to study this some more to see if I can minimize the engagement area loss. You wouldn't happen to have a spare Ti cylinder around would you?? Sitting next to a cup full of hens teeth I would presume Thanks again BHill Edited October 24, 2013 by BHill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Sorry BHill, the only spares I have laying around are stainless steel with boogered up notches. I actually bought mine from S&W as replacement parts for the 325PD when they were still making those. But I think they stopped putting Ti cylinders in those guns and then stopped making them altogether. I haven't tried to find one lately. Maybe someone will chime in with one to trade or sell. I haven't quite reached the day when I'm willing to part with mine, although that may not be too far off the way I've been shooting lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 BHill, I've been actively looking for a 625 ti cylinder for about 4-5 months now with no luck, smith isnt making them, and nobody is stocking them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHill Posted October 25, 2013 Author Share Posted October 25, 2013 Thanks guys, I already had an idea on Ti cylinder availability due to following Alecmc's quest. Good luck with that. I'm considering cutting the notches a few (.002-.003) deeper to give a bit more stopping power with the same deepening of the ramp and moving it over to center. Picture is of the notches and cylinder stop tracking trace. I used a sharpy for background as it didn't want to photo very well. Photo is grainy but it gets the point across. I have several older Smiths and they did not get their reputation by doing this kind of work. QC must have become optional at some point. The older guns are dead center. BHill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 It's my understanding that the notches are intentionally longer, and off center from where that used to be. This was one of the changes made to the guns a part of the "endurance package" the gun writers like to talk about. The magnum guns were unlocking during recoil and the new design helps with that. If you deepen the notches you will alter the timing of the cylinder stop and you may run into problems. What is your trigger pull weight? Below 6.5 lbs i find that i skip by chambers when i hesitate on a sight picture. It's a user error, but a little extra weight on the trigger completely eliminates it for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHill Posted October 25, 2013 Author Share Posted October 25, 2013 Hi PatJones, Not sure I follow you on the timing issue. I can' t see where adding depth to the notches would effect any timing as I thought timing was in relation to the rotational alignment of the cylinder and the barrel. Now you have given me something to ponder that is for sure. Also if you take a look at the tracking on the cylinder you will see that the stop is riding forward on the ramp and therefore not getting deep enough to engage the stop notch when shooting faster. My trigger will not pick up a 8# weight but easily picks up a 7#. It will set of Federals at under 5.5 but I'm practicing with the heavier trigger for now. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolguy Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 (edited) The longer notches were to allow the cylinder stop to stay engaged in the notch when it bounces from heavy recoil. The notches are longer front to back and do not change the timing. At the same time they added an additional part in the 44 and 45 (heavy recoil) that is activated by a longer hand pivot pin. It rides in a vertical slot in the frame and blocks the thumblatch (cylinder bolt) from opening when the trigger is pulled. The ramps leading in to the notches need to be centered on the cylinder stop so it can be high enough to catch on the far side of the notch and stop rotation, then fully engage the notch to prevent counter rotation. Edited October 25, 2013 by Toolguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 If you deepen the notches, the cylinder stop rides a little higher in the frame. This will close up the gap between the stop and the trigger. If this gap completely closes up the stop will not reset, locking up the gun on the second shot. If you open the cylinder and run the revolver while holding the release button back, does the stop drop below the frame? If you remove the stop from the frame, will it freely fit into each slot on the cylinder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolguy Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 (edited) The cylinder stop has a pad on top just behind the hump that stops against the inside of the frame. That is what limits the upward travel. You can file this pad down to get more engagement in the notch. Normally this is not required. As PatJones says, if the stop goes up too far the front of the trigger cannot get back on the ledge of the stop and thus cannot pull it down to index for the next shot. You can check this by cycling the gun with the cylinder open. If the stop were constrained by the depth of the cylinder notch it would go up too far with the cylinder open. If the action cycles normally with the cylinder open then the stop is not dependent on the depth of the cylinder notch. Edited October 25, 2013 by Toolguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHill Posted October 25, 2013 Author Share Posted October 25, 2013 If you deepen the notches, the cylinder stop rides a little higher in the frame. This will close up the gap between the stop and the trigger. If this gap completely closes up the stop will not reset, locking up the gun on the second shot. If you open the cylinder and run the revolver while holding the release button back, does the stop drop below the frame? If you remove the stop from the frame, will it freely fit into each slot on the cylinder? The stop goes down to just flush with the frame and there are no problems squeezing the trigger repeatedly. Yes the stop fits freely into each slot. I did check this prior to installing the new stop. The old one did as well but I changed it as a precaution along with the spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHill Posted October 25, 2013 Author Share Posted October 25, 2013 Tool guy, Would you recommend lengthening the slots on the cylinders as I had mentioned earlier? If I did this I think it only helps if I also enlarge the ramp portion as well. I would widen the ramp the same amount as the slot in order for the stop to ride in the lowest portion of he ramp. This would leave a flat portion at the blower portion of the ramp as I wouldn't be altering the depth. In the picture on post #7 you can see where the stop rides on the forward shoulder of the ramp and I believe that is the root of my problems. I appreciate your help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolguy Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 I agree with your assessment. From the picture it appears that the stop is in line with the notch before it gets to the ramp, but the ramp geometry is off. It may be possible you only need to rework the ramp to make it work right. You will need to look at how the stop is seated in the notch at lockup to see if you need to also lengthen the notch. I would do only the ramps first, then re evaluate the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHill Posted October 25, 2013 Author Share Posted October 25, 2013 Tool guy, It's hard to see in the picture but I'm only getting about 50-70% engagement of the notch as well. My photo skills have turned out a picture that would show up. I do like the Idea of doing them one at a time (ramps and then slots if required) kind of like measure twice cut once. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckaroo45 Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Forgive me for being simple minded here but I had a skipping issue with both my 625's and was advised here to remove the "speed bump" at the trailing edge of the down ramp leading to the locking notch. Prolly got the wrong verbage but it worked like a charm. I removed the bump and put a small bevel on the trailing edge of the cylinder stop to help it enter the stop notch a bit faster and "voila" no more skipping. FWIW I note that the cylinder stop on both my 625's track a bit toward the rear of the gun instead of being centered. I just presumed it was due to the pivot point of the stop and once seated it would be centered. Never considered it required any machine work. Or do I just not understand the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolguy Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 I think in this case it's more a matter of degree. Yours may not have been offset as much as this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHill Posted October 26, 2013 Author Share Posted October 26, 2013 I don't think you are being simple minded at all. I have done what you are talking about it just turns out to be temporary for me. I think it is because of the degree of misalignment ,as Toolguy mentioned above, that the stop has almost no chance to stop it or drop into place causing a bit more penning and the ramp on the leading edge can be smaller to create the same skipping results. That is my assumption at this stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Forgive me for being simple minded here but I had a skipping issue with both my 625's and was advised here to remove the "speed bump" at the trailing edge of the down ramp leading to the locking notch. Prolly got the wrong verbage but it worked like a charm. I removed the bump and put a small bevel on the trailing edge of the cylinder stop to help it enter the stop notch a bit faster and "voila" no more skipping. When the gun works fine for a period of time, then suddenly starts to intermittently skip, getting rid of the speed bump is the fix. If there is a true dimensional issue with the stop notch engagement, the gun will presumably have problems from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHill Posted October 27, 2013 Author Share Posted October 27, 2013 Mike I don't disagree. I was only thinking that the misalignment was accelerating the formation of the speed bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 I was only thinking that the misalignment was accelerating the formation of the speed bump. I think the "track" you're seeing is a bit misleading and looks like more offset than there really is. There is also (if all else fails) a heavier cylinder stop spring available from Wolff and also from S&W #107080000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHill Posted October 29, 2013 Author Share Posted October 29, 2013 Funny you should say that because after spending a good bit of time looking at it through a magnifying lens last night I see that the notch actually extends well past the stop while engaged so extending it more would have done nothing for me. Additionally the stop is only riding on that leading edge with very minimal clearance to the bottom of the ramp. I will get the heavier stop spring and possibly massage the forward ramp edge a bit as well. Thanks for the part number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHill Posted October 29, 2013 Author Share Posted October 29, 2013 I appreciate the help from everyone as I stumble through my learning curve! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckaroo45 Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Funny you should mention the heavier cylinder stop spring. I had a M29 Silhouette gun in my past. Because the hard core silhouette shooters would heavily overload the ammo w/ 300 grain boolits and compressed powder the recoil would sometimes cause the cylinder to jump backwards tho I never went down that road. S&W tried to help by coming up with a heavy duty cylinder stop spring. I bought 2 and tried to install one in my gun. Try as I might I was never able to get it to install correctly tho the original went together in a snap so apparently my method was sound. Anyway, expect some difficulty installing one and I venture to say the turn line will be somewhat accelerated. Just passing along my experience. YRMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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