Felt recoil, plated vs. lead

[jstagn]

I am using 4.1-4.2 grains of Clays 45acp 230rn Xtreme plated bullets for USPSA, makes major 170pf. Load data for Bayou Green coated lead 230rn uses 3.8-3.9 clays for the same speed. Since you would be using less powder, .2 gr, would there be any differences in felt recoil?

[Histate]

I haven't used clays before but I don't think you will be able to feel a .2 gr difference

[TonyK]

Printed and published load data doesn't necessarily match what comes out of your gun. I have noticed that powder charge weights seem to very between books even at the same OAL with the same bullet. Published data is only a starting (or ending) point, chronograph will tell the real story....

[bowenbuilt]

This may sound crazy but plated bullets are much softer in my guns than coated or lead bullets. I don't just mean a little softer, I mean a lot softer shooting. I don't know why but that's how it is.

Increasing .2 grains of Clays is a big difference in my guns. From 4 to 4.2 goes from dribbling out brass to sending it a 3 feet to the right.

Edited October 11, 2013 by bowenbuilt

[cheers623]

While felt recoil is subjective from shooter to shooter there are a few things to think about here. The first and most important is basic physics. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The faster a bullet travels down and then out of a barrel the more recoil it will produce. Thus, the lead and moly-coated bullets which are softer generally than plated or jacketed bullets will take less engraving force to travel thru the rifled barrel and produce higher velocities. These higher velocities will produce more recoil. The harder the bullet and thus more force expended traveling thru the barrel will result in slower velocities and less recoil. This assumes that you are using the same powder charge weight and bullet weight and only substituting one type of bullet for another. I.e. plated or jacketed for lead/moly coated.

Now, if you adjust the powder charge weight so that you drive the harder bullets (plated/jacketed) at the SAME velocity as the softer bullets (lead/moly) you will have to use more powder, which creates more of the "rocket engine" effect of hot expanding gasses coming from the muzzle which will translate into more felt recoil. Thus, generally speaking, jacketed bullets traveling at the same velocity as lead bullets will produce more recoil, assuming you're using the same gun, same spring weight, and only increasing the powder charge weight to drive it the same speed as the lead/softer bullets.

Hope that makes it clear as mud. I learned from extensive trial and error experimentation and reading until the light finally went on in my dull noggin.

Cheers623

DVC

[jstagn]

Thanks, Cheers623, that exactly the information I needed. A friends friend uses the Bayou 45acp 230rn with 3.9 gr of Clays, I use xtreme plated 45acp 230rn and use 4.2 gr. clays. Both make major. I am going to gets some of his loads and then chrono BOTH and see FPS and felt recoil for myself. With your analysis I expect to feel LESS recoil with the Bayou, how much less depends on if I will switch to Bayou.

[cheers623]

Perfect way to test it as long as you're making around the same velocity with those two loads. I'll say this about the various bullets I've tried. Generally the lead/moly coated bullets feel softer when loaded to the same velocity as plated or jacketed bullets with plated being the 2nd softest followed lastly by jacketed bullets. The main difference being how hard the bullets are and the force it takes to drive them thru the barrel. However, I've tried many different plated bullets and they seem to vary greatly on their hardness/plating thickness from brand to brand. Some are almost as hard as jacketed! I started out shooting USPSA using Montana Gold jacketed bullets. They're great product, consistent, accurate, well made....but hard as hell and expensive. Then I switched to Bear Creek moly-coated lead. Really soft shooting, cheap, plentiful, and pretty consistent...but smoky depending on powder used and dirty as crap in the loading process and handling....oh, and most importantly my indoor range won't let me shoot them! Then went thru all the plated brands and arrived at Rainier Ballistics plated bullets. They're almost as soft shooting as lead/moly, very consistent, accurate in all my guns, and very clean to handle and shoot along with being very reasonably priced depending on where you get them. I only have to adjust my powder charge up .1-.2 grains max to make the same velocity as lead. Hope that helps and good luck with the testing!

Cheers623

DVC

[jstagn]

Thanks, I am currently using Xtreme plated. Let you know when I test the Bayou 'green' bullets. Naturally, they must travel at or very near the same FPS in order for the test to be valid.

On another subject, I did test the xtreme plated with the same bullets in my 9mm 147gr rn with 2 different powders. 3.7 gr of WSF vs. 3.3 gr of N320. both shot chrono at 890-900 fps. The vit n320 had approx. 15-20 percent LESS felt recoil to me. So I am switching to vit n320 for my IDPA gun. Felt recoil is very subjective but this load was also much quieter (also subjective since I don't have a db meter).

Hope also to test the vit n320 against clays in my 45acp (230gr rn) also both making major and as possible to the same FPS as possible. THANKS..........

[njl]

On another subject, I did test the xtreme plated with the same bullets in my 9mm 147gr rn with 2 different powders. 3.7 gr of WSF vs. 3.3 gr of N320. both shot chrono at 890-900 fps. The vit n320 had approx. 15-20 percent LESS felt recoil to me. So I am switching to vit n320 for my IDPA gun. Felt recoil is very subjective but this load was also much quieter (also subjective since I don't have a db meter).

Hope also to test the vit n320 against clays in my 45acp (230gr rn) also both making major and as possible to the same FPS as possible. THANKS..........

That makes sense with multiple explanations. N320 is a much faster powder than WSF. Faster powders tend to produce less perceived recoil than slower powders. You're also using less of it...and less powder for same velocity should produce less recoil.

This makes me wonder now though about some loads I've done. I've used mostly Universal for 9mm (124gr and 147gr), but also some WST. WST is a faster powder than Universal (but not as much faster as N320 is than WSF). I have to use a couple tenths of a grain more WST to get the same velocity as Universal with either of the above bullet weights. I guess WST burns faster than Universal, but produces less gas?

[Sean Gaines]

While felt recoil is subjective from shooter to shooter there are a few things to think about here. The first and most important is basic physics. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The faster a bullet travels down and then out of a barrel the more recoil it will produce. Thus, the lead and moly-coated bullets which are softer generally than plated or jacketed bullets will take less engraving force to travel thru the rifled barrel and produce higher velocities. These higher velocities will produce more recoil. The harder the bullet and thus more force expended traveling thru the barrel will result in slower velocities and less recoil. This assumes that you are using the same powder charge weight and bullet weight and only substituting one type of bullet for another. I.e. plated or jacketed for lead/moly coated.

Now, if you adjust the powder charge weight so that you drive the harder bullets (plated/jacketed) at the SAME velocity as the softer bullets (lead/moly) you will have to use more powder, which creates more of the "rocket engine" effect of hot expanding gasses coming from the muzzle which will translate into more felt recoil. Thus, generally speaking, jacketed bullets traveling at the same velocity as lead bullets will produce more recoil, assuming you're using the same gun, same spring weight, and only increasing the powder charge weight to drive it the same speed as the lead/softer bullets.

Hope that makes it clear as mud. I learned from extensive trial and error experimentation and reading until the light finally went on in my dull noggin.

Cheers623

DVC

I agree! +1

[bowenbuilt]

I tested this theory today using plated 230 bullet from X-treme and coated bullets from Precision. At 750 FPS the plated bullets were the softest by a large margin. I tried loading the Moly bullets to a longer OAL and the plated bullets were still softer at the same power factor. Try this for yourself and let me know if I am crazy but I swear the plated bullets are softer in my gun by a fairly good margin.

[njl]

I tested this theory today using plated 230 bullet from X-treme and coated bullets from Precision. At 750 FPS the plated bullets were the softest by a large margin. I tried loading the Moly bullets to a longer OAL and the plated bullets were still softer at the same power factor. Try this for yourself and let me know if I am crazy but I swear the plated bullets are softer in my gun by a fairly good margin.

What were the charges and avg velocities of each? Are you saying both were doing 750fps? Did the Precision's take less powder to get to 750?

[jstagn]

Also you loaded to a different OAL, were they the same 230gr.rn?

[bowenbuilt]

To do the test I used the lightest .45 I own with the longest barrel. A Taurus OSS/DS Tactical with a 5.25" barrel.

I loaded 4.2 grains of Clays behind a 230 grain X-Treme bullet for an average of 750 FPS.

I loaded 3.9 grains of Clays behind a 230 grain moly coated bullet for an average of 750 FPS.

The OAL of both bullets was 1.200 for the test. The only thing tested was the softness of the 2 loads by myself and 2 other people at the range. All 3 of us had the opinion that the plated load was the softest in recoil.

I had loaded the same 230 grain Moly bullet at an OAL of 1.240 with 3.9 grains of Clays just for giggles and the original plated bullet load was softer.

While there and the most pronounced difference between the Moly coated bullets and the RMR plated was in my Glock 22 in .40 caliber which consisted of 3.6 grains of e3 for the plated and 3.2 for the Moly coated 180 grain bullets. Even the report of the Moly coated bullets were much more pronounced along with the perceived recoil and muzzle flip. I cannot believe I am the only person to experience this.

Edited October 22, 2013 by bowenbuilt

[jstagn]

Excellent test......I am going to try xtreme plated 45acp 4.2 clays with Bayou green coated lead with 3.9 in my 5" para and see if my results are similar. I would have thought your results would have been the other way around. Just shows, you just have to TEST....

[JLeeCZ]

Good thread. I am brand new to this, in fact haven't loaded my first round yet. Have some 700x coming and thinking it will perform similar to 320.