Single Stack Build Major or Minor

[flack jacket]

I've said this before in other places, but most state and Area matches are much more Production friendly than Single Stack Major friendly. If you don't shoot SS-only matches a lot and have no particular attraction to Major (I happen to believe the .45 is the perfect SS round, but I'm strange), then you might want to shoot Minor--IF you can shoot accurately enough to not drop a bunch of points for shooting C's at speed. If not, then Major makes more sense, in my not-so-humble.

Why not build both slides to fit the frame?

Good Plan.. Dual top ends.. been done before with great success.

Ensure your barrel ramps are alike and build both topends at same time so the smithy can plan for it..

[steel1212]

I am not really saying that one is better, I don't think there is an advantage.

Also BIB, being Prod and SSTK only, is not a good comparison either. Area matches, a match like Double Tap, something that is match that is not geared to any division in particular is a more fair comparison.

BITB stages isn't geared towards either division. The stages come straight from our local matches. We do it that way to see what will fit in outmr bays and work the best. Edited October 5, 2013 by steel1212

[steel1212]

Wow. Great answers. Steel1212 I work with the Shaun you are referring to and he says major also. I like the idea of 9 for local and 40 for majors simple bc ammo is cheaper. I think this is the route I will be taking

Then do yourself a favor and listen to him!! He also knows a thing or 2 about making .40 1911s run...he has had plenty of practice!

[steel1212]

To the guy that brought up 2012 IN match...I've been trying to forget that match lol. Anyway Alex is a freak and if he keeps at it you'll see up on the super squad. With that said I don't think its a fair comparison between him and Shaun. Shaun is good but I think Alex is better...in production.

That's the thing about sports. You can never have a apples to apples comparison. Even if you were to shoot the same match major and minor something would change to skew it...I've tried it just never works out. FYI when I've done it minor never won.

[Racer377]

To the guy that brought up 2012 IN match...I've been trying to forget that match lol. Anyway Alex is a freak and if he keeps at it you'll see up on the super squad. With that said I don't think its a fair comparison between him and Shaun. Shaun is good but I think Alex is better...in production.

That's the thing about sports. You can never have a apples to apples comparison. Even if you were to shoot the same match major and minor something would change to skew it...I've tried it just never works out. FYI when I've done it minor never won.

That's completely true - apples to apples is a tough thing to find, and Alex is a freak, no doubt. That's why I compared T16 in each division to minimize the effect of outliers like Alex. If you look at the stage-by-stage HF breakdown, the T16 (not just Alex) PRD guys beat the T16 SSTK guys almost across the board. Even we take Alex out, the point still holds, at least for that very specific match.

The other thing that confounds a good comparison is that SSTK isn't most shooter's "primary" division, so their classification lags somewhat. There are a surprising number of really, really really good shooters who are only M in SSTK. Take a look at this year's SSTK nats results - guys like Manny Bragg and Max Michel with an "M" simply because it's just not a division they've shot enough. On a smaller level, at this year's IN Sectional, I think every SSTK A was a Master in their primary division.

[Rob Tompkins]

I've been shooting a lot of SSTK Major of the past year. If you want to see the 10rnds vs 8rnds difference, watch the production shooters. See if they shoot the stages different, have fewer reloads, etc.

[steel1212]

To the guy that brought up 2012 IN match...I've been trying to forget that match lol. Anyway Alex is a freak and if he keeps at it you'll see up on the super squad. With that said I don't think its a fair comparison between him and Shaun. Shaun is good but I think Alex is better...in production.

That's the thing about sports. You can never have a apples to apples comparison. Even if you were to shoot the same match major and minor something would change to skew it...I've tried it just never works out. FYI when I've done it minor never won.

That's completely true - apples to apples is a tough thing to find, and Alex is a freak, no doubt. That's why I compared T16 in each division to minimize the effect of outliers like Alex. If you look at the stage-by-stage HF breakdown, the T16 (not just Alex) PRD guys beat the T16 SSTK guys almost across the board. Even we take Alex out, the point still holds, at least for that very specific match.

The other thing that confounds a good comparison is that SSTK isn't most shooter's "primary" division, so their classification lags somewhat. There are a surprising number of really, really really good shooters who are only M in SSTK. Take a look at this year's SSTK nats results - guys like Manny Bragg and Max Michel with an "M" simply because it's just not a division they've shot enough. On a smaller level, at this year's IN Sectional, I think every SSTK A was a Master in their primary division.

If you did top 16 there was def more talent in pro. Like you said pro is a lot if guys main focus SS is just a secondary for most.

To me there is a reason 95% of the shooters shoot major. Until somebody starts winning with a minor gun I'll stick to my .40s lol

[Racer377]

Correct, there was more.Talent in PRD. Avg T16 classification % - PRD: 82.05, SSTK: 74.17. ~8% difference, just like the HFs.

The other way to go about it is to compare someone who shoots both well to someone who is a good, consistent PRD shooter, and both have to shoot a bunch of the same matches. It just so happens we have such a pair in our region. The SSTK/PRD guy over the course of the last 2 years, consistently finishes about 95% in the combined results of the PRD guy whether he shoots 10rd minor in PRD or 8 major. Avg. 5.6% behind in SSTK and 4.6% avg. behind PRD. The 1% better result with 10rd of minor is a bit unexpected, but is probably just noise. If 8 major were a big advantage, I'd think there'd be a more pronounced difference going the OTHER way.

The numbers aren't saying 10 rd of minor is an advantage, but they don't say it's a disadvantage either. It seems like the few points you lose on charlies in a given stage get made up for with some extra speed from powder puff 9 and a saved reload or better plan. If these numbers mean what I think they do, there's no reason to give up the 40s, but there's also no reason for someone starting from scratch NOT to consider a 9mm. It's a 6-to-one, half-dozen-to-the-other kind of deal.

I'm sure there's a reason most people use major, myself included. A few reasons, actually: 1. 45 1911s are really easy to find, 2. all things being equal, it's easier to make a 45 1911 run, 3. conventional wisdom says Major is a HUGE advantage. In contrast, I don't know anyone that has had a 9mm 1911 run 100% straight out of the box. Finding one and getting it to run is a lot of work for something that comes out to be a wash on the score sheet vs. a major 1911.

I bet if Dave S would've had 10 mags and some 135ish PF ammo, (instead of 8s and 164pf) at SSTK Nats, you'd have seen someone shooting minor winning.

[frag316]

I shot A5 with Matt Mink, and we broke down stages together. The difference those two rounds made generally meant one less reload and one less shooting position.

[ss+P]

Racer377 holy cow that is a lot of info to take in. I like that you broke it down to t16 instead of top 3-5. I am not a top 3-5 guy yet. Really interesting stuff. I am surprised that your data found it to be a wash.

[ss+P]

Thanks a lot for putting that much thought an effort into that

[ss+P]

Frag 316 that could mean a lot of time if that were true over 9 or so stages.

Steel1212 I do listen to Shaun, that's why I am building a 40. I will just shoot the wife's 9 until the funds come around. And yes he does know how to make them run. And look pretty

[Sean Gaines]

What we are looking at is 2 extra rounds in the hands of a native American(politicaly correct hat on), who can shoot. If you plan on winning the match like most of the people at the match are trying to do. The thought process going into the match is why shoot minor? I am already at a disadvantage point wise, why give up those precious points? A person who wins the stage will do so by executing the stage to perfection, with minimial points dropped and a fast time(which means shooing no extra shots, typically). We all know this. Can it be done shooting minor? yes. Statistics show that someone shooting minor has not won a Nationals event. fact. Can it be won shooting minor? Yes, but has not been done, nor do we have enough of a sample size of the top dogs doing so to change the other top dog's mind about shooting minor.

Personally, I think the added 2 extra rounds in the hands of an A, B, and even Master class shooters can come in handy. But to the Top shooters in the country, they know what they need to do to be successful, and the thought of carrying extra rounds so if you miss you can have one, is not the type of thinking you want to have going into a major event. I think you want to think about executing your plan to perfection, moreso than thinking about missing or shooting a delta.

having the 2 extra rounds is not going to be a huge advantage like having a cmore on your gun versus someone who is shooting iron sights. That was a major advantage that was quickly realized, When Barnhart blew everyone away using an optic as opposed to an iron sighted weapon, and quickly the top dogs moved that direction. If or when you see a top dog win a Nationals shooting minor, you may get some of the top dog's to change to minor, but until then, they will be shooting Major. JMHO

[Carmoney]

Statistics show that someone shooting minor has not won a Nationals event. fact. Can it be won shooting minor? Yes, but has not been done, nor do we have enough of a sample size of the top dogs doing so to change the other top dog's mind about shooting minor.

You understand that the SS Nationals stages are specifically designed to favor the 8-shot major caliber pistols, right? Very few top shooters will choose the 10-shot minor option, because they know it would place them at a disadvantage.

However, the 10-minor pistol reaches parity with 8-major when the stages are not designed to be purely 8-round neutral--for example, nearly every major match other than the SS Nationals. I shot Area 5 and Area 3 last year with a 9mm 1911, and at both those matches the 10-minor pistol was a completely viable choice.

To the original poster: If you're serious about SS Division, build both!

[Sean Gaines]

Statistics show that someone shooting minor has not won a Nationals event. fact. Can it be won shooting minor? Yes, but has not been done, nor do we have enough of a sample size of the top dogs doing so to change the other top dog's mind about shooting minor.

You understand that the SS Nationals stages are specifically designed to favor the 8-shot major caliber pistols, right? Very few top shooters will choose the 10-shot minor option, because they know it would place them at a disadvantage.

However, the 10-minor pistol reaches parity with 8-major when the stages are not designed to be purely 8-round neutral--for example, nearly every major match other than the SS Nationals. I shot Area 5 and Area 3 last year with a 9mm 1911, and at both those matches the 10-minor pistol was a completely viable choice.

To the original poster: If you're serious about SS Division, build both!

I thought were talking about a match with more than 30 shooters in that division, were there is more than just one or two top dogs in it(your example,2012 Area 3 and 5)...Why don't we just talk about club level matches then....

[Strick]

I thought were talking about a match with more than 30 shooters in that division,

Then we aren't talking about SSTK other than Nationals.......which is setup for 8 rounds.

[Sean Gaines]

I thought were talking about a match with more than 30 shooters in that division,

Then we aren't talking about SSTK other than Nationals.......which is setup for 8 rounds.

Brian

Well we are talking about both, and that's what's confusing. There is a difference between a club level match were you may have 5-10 shooters shooting single stack or an area match were there is 30 shooters total in that division. Then you have Nationals with 3-400 shooters. All I am saying from what I see, is if you go to SS Nationals, you better be geared up for shooting major loads. because points will win. How many times do we see a person loose a match/class by a couple of points? That's when you wish you were shooting major.

[Strick]

I thought were talking about a match with more than 30 shooters in that division,

Then we aren't talking about SSTK other than Nationals.......which is setup for 8 rounds.

Brian

Well we are talking about both, and that's what's confusing. There is a difference between a club level match were you may have 5-10 shooters shooting single stack or an area match were there is 30 shooters total in that division. Then you have Nationals with 3-400 shooters. All I am saying from what I see, is if you go to SS Nationals, you better be geared up for shooting major loads. because points will win. How many times do we see a person loose a match/class by a couple of points? That's when you wish you were shooting major.

Losing by a couple points could be from not shooting a A or 2 or it could be from being slower by a second or 2.

The point I am making is that at a typical Area or Sectional match it comes down to the shooter and not major or minor in SSTK. There are many opportunities to make up time with those extra 2 rounds and have a more creative stage plan. Being able to blaze away and be slightly sloppy (for lack of a better word) hitting C's is not an advantage when you only have 8 rounds in a mag like it is Limited with 20+.

Look at 4 of 6 the stages we shot Saturday at a club match. I am not looking at scores or comparing shooters but in 4 of those stages a SSTK major shooter would have to make an extra reload compared to a minor shooter.

[Sean Gaines]

I thought were talking about a match with more than 30 shooters in that division,

Then we aren't talking about SSTK other than Nationals.......which is setup for 8 rounds.

Brian

Well we are talking about both, and that's what's confusing. There is a difference between a club level match were you may have 5-10 shooters shooting single stack or an area match were there is 30 shooters total in that division. Then you have Nationals with 3-400 shooters. All I am saying from what I see, is if you go to SS Nationals, you better be geared up for shooting major loads. because points will win. How many times do we see a person loose a match/class by a couple of points? That's when you wish you were shooting major.

Losing by a couple points could be from not shooting a A or 2 or it could be from being slower by a second or 2.

The point I am making is that at a typical Area or Sectional match it comes down to the shooter and not major or minor in SSTK. There are many opportunities to make up time with those extra 2 rounds and have a more creative stage plan. Being able to blaze away and be slightly sloppy (for lack of a better word) hitting C's is not an advantage when you only have 8 rounds in a mag like it is Limited with 20+.

Look at 4 of 6 the stages we shot Saturday at a club match. I am not looking at scores or comparing shooters but in 4 of those stages a SSTK major shooter would have to make an extra reload compared to a minor shooter.

I agree that in that situation it would have made a difference. That is why we shoot 12-16 stages and not shoot 1 stage to determine the winner of the match.

[Strick]

How many times do we see a person loose a match/class by a couple of points? That's when you wish you were shooting major..........................................

I agree that in that situation it would have made a difference. That is why we shoot 12-16 stages and not shoot 1 stage to determine the winner of the match.

But as you said, how many times have you seen a major match decided by a few match points..........it can make a difference.

[Sean Gaines]

How many times do we see a person loose a match/class by a couple of points? That's when you wish you were shooting major..........................................

I agree that in that situation it would have made a difference. That is why we shoot 12-16 stages and not shoot 1 stage to determine the winner of the match.

But as you said, how many times have you seen a major match decided by a few match points..........it can make a difference.

But I am not going to take that long drive or flight home knowing that it could have been prevented by shooting major.

[Racer377]

Some numbers from 2013 A5, broken down by stage, division and class. I've already mentioned the lagging SSTK classification problem, but that doesn't seem to diminish the point that 10rds of minor is a wash compared to 8rd major

I wish tables pasted well

Edited October 7, 2013 by Racer377

[Sean Gaines]

Some numbers from 2013 A5, broken down by stage, division and class. I've already mentioned the lagging SSTK classification problem, but that doesn't seem to diminish the point that 10rds of minor is a wash compared to 8rd major

I wish tables pasted well

Are you trying to compare single stack to production? just not sure were your going with this. if so, there are a lot of shooters who strictly shoot production full time, and shoot single stack occasionally. so to me, you can't really compare the two without looking at the single stack competitors who shoot Single stack full time. Plus you have class seperations thrown in as a variable, and you have major/minor considerations also.

[Racer377]

Some numbers from 2013 A5, broken down by stage, division and class. I've already mentioned the lagging SSTK classification problem, but that doesn't seem to diminish the point that 10rds of minor is a wash compared to 8rd major

I wish tables pasted well

Are you trying to compare single stack to production? just not sure were your going with this. if so, there are a lot of shooters who strictly shoot production full time, and shoot single stack occasionally. so to me, you can't really compare the two without looking at the single stack competitors who shoot Single stack full time. Plus you have class seperations thrown in as a variable, and you have major/minor considerations also.

PRD is 10rd minor, and closest sample population we have. And you're right, most people don't shoot SSTK full time, and thus a guy like Max Michel shot SSTK nats as a mere M class. To the extent that happens, it skews the data in favor of SSTK If we're comparing a SSTK population in which guys like him are M, but PRD M are actually M class, the HFs for SSTK M vs. PRD M will be higher. The data aren't showing that. Even with the lagging classifiers in SSTK, the HF are roughly the same.

The data aren't really showing that 8rd of major is a big advantage over 10 of minor.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Racer377

[Racer377]

There weren't all that many SSTKers shooting minor, but this set removes them from the calculation. It doesn't change much.