IPSC Production Glock17

[Skywalker]

I like Sky's box rule for Prod, before the manufacturers get the crazy idea of pushing the mag capacity or something.

I just happened to realize: isn't the 31-rounder mag offered for glocks 17 too?

It's OFM offered for the specific handgun...

I guess this would be a nice addition to a perfectly "IPSC Production Legal" gun, woulndn't it?

[Flexmoney]

Looks like it is.

But, you can't add that +2 base pad to take it to 33 rounds.

(forget what I said about switching guns. lol)

[Chuck Anderson]

I don't think the 31+ Glock magazine has ever come from the factory with a Glock 17. The magazine was developed to be used with the Glock 18. So I guess if you wanna shoot Production with an 18 go for it.

[Flexmoney]

Lawman,

I don't know? I followed the link that skywalker provided. Looks like they may very well be available with the G17.

If not, all Glock would have to do is to make them a factory option, right?

[Nik Habicht]

I like Sky's box rule for Prod, before the manufacturers get the crazy idea of pushing the mag capacity or something.

I just happened to realize: isn't the 31-rounder mag offered for glocks 17 too?

It's OFM offered for the specific handgun...

I guess this would be a nice addition to a perfectly "IPSC Production Legal" gun, woulndn't it?

Since IPSC still has a box rule, we just have to get Glock to offer it as a standard mag for the G-26 --- so that maybe it'll fit in the box while in the gun. Hmmm, wonder how a 26 would handle with a 31 round stick......

[Flexmoney]

Nik,

I don't think IPSC has a box for Production, just Standard and Modified.

The applicable rule for the 31 round G17 mag would seem to be IPSC Appendix D4, Item 8 > Item 19

Origianl parts and components offered by the OFM as standard equipment, or as an option, for a specific model handgun on the IPSC approved handgun list are permitted...

[Vince Pinto]

I don't think the 31+ Glock magazine has ever come from the factory with a Glock 17.  The magazine was developed to be used with the Glock 18.  So I guess if you wanna shoot Production with an 18 go for it.

Yes, the 31 round magazine is standard for the G18, but you cannot use a G18 in any IPSC division due to Rule 5.1.11. No, you cannot use a 31 round magazine in a G17, nor can you use a G17 magazine in a G19 or G26 and so on in IPSC Production Division, because:

19. Original parts and components offered by the OFM as standard equipment, or as an option, for a specific model handgun on the IPSC approved handgun list are permitted, subject to the following:

........ 19.2 Base plates and/or any other devices which provide additional ammunition capacity (e.g. “+2” magazine extensions), are prohibited.

The expression "any other devices" means "ANY other devices", and this includes larger than standard magazines, "+1" followers and so on. This is also why the aftermarket option for magazines also says:

20.1 Aftermarket magazines which match the external dimensions of standard magazines offered by the OFM for the approved handgun are permitted.

[Flexmoney]

The way I read it...

The Glock 31 round mag is NOT an aftermarket mag...so, 20.1 does not apply.

I don't see 19.2 applying...we aren't talking about adding baseplates or mag extensions...which are "other devices" that add capacity.

Seems to me that, they would just need to meet the requirements of 19.0

...standard equipment, or as an option...

(just trying to give you a headache, Vince)

[Vince Pinto]

(just trying to give you a headache, Vince)

No headache and no problem. If you don't believe me, don't believe me - no hard feelings.

If anybody wants an official ruling on this or any other rules matter, just send an email to rules@ipsc.org

[Flexmoney]

Vince,

An officail ruling? For what? (Really...not being difficult here. The wording seems pretty clear to me. What am I missing?)

[Nik Habicht]

My G-17 came new with a pair of ten round magazines standard. Are you suggesting that if I choose to shoot it in IPSC Production division I need to restrict myself to ten round mags because that's what Glock shipped with my blaster? Seems to me that if I get to use 17 round magazines, then as long as Glock is willing to sell a G-17 with 31 round mags that there's nothing in the rulebook to prohibit one from using them......

[Vince Pinto]

My G-17 came new with a pair of ten round magazines standard.  Are you suggesting that if I choose to shoot it in IPSC Production division I need to restrict myself to ten round mags because that's what Glock shipped with my blaster?

No, it's got nothing to do with "as shipped" or "as supplied in my local market". In the Philippines, the Glock 17 is supplied with "+2" baseplates, but they are expressly prohibited in IPSC Production Division. In Finland, the Glock 17 is supplied with an extended (and threaded) barrel in excess of the 127mm maximum allowed and "+2" basepads, but those items are also expressly prohibited in IPSC Production Division.

The IPSC Production Division Committee approves the standard OFM configuration for each gun. In the case of the Glock 17, this means the 17 round magazine. So, if you only have 10 round magazines, you're entitled to use the OFM standard if you shoot internationally.

But tell me something Nik. Why is it that the people being the most argumentative and dismissive of my answers in respect of IPSC Production Division, are those who never actually shoot it?

[Flexmoney]

But tell me something Nik. Why is it that the people being the most argumentative and dismissive of my answers in respect of IPSC Production Division, are those who never actually shoot it?

Aww, come on Darth. I've defended your right to comment on USPSA rules quite a few times, I think. And, you don't exactly have a lot of time behind the trigger.

Now...on with my lawyering.

The IPSC Production Division Committee approves the standard OFM configuration for each gun.

Rule 19.0 doesn't read like that. It allows optional equipment.

19.0 Original parts and components offered by the OFM as standard equipment, or as an option, for a speciific model handgun on the IPSC approved handgun list...

The G17 qualifies as being on the list.

The Glock 31 round 9mm mags meet this requirement.

The 31 round mags aren't offered as standard, but...if they were offered as an OPTION, they would meet the requirements of the rule book.

...just like the Heinie sights and such that have been used in the past.

Shouldn't be an issues either way...it's all about the shooter.

(Be right back...going for my Kevlar vest and helmet. )

[Vince Pinto]

Flex,

I can only give you one answer, and it won't change, no matter how many different ways you ask the question, even if you use increasingly larger fonts to ask it. I'm not blind, I just have nothing more to say on the subject. And how does my trigger time have any relevance to Production Division rules?

Moreover, as you've often dismissed my posts here as merely being my "opinion", I gave you the email address where you can obtain an "official ruling" from IPSC. How else can I be of service to you?

As an aside, I've personally handled an average of 10 private emails in respect of PD, emanating from the IPSC website, every week for the past 5 years, and not one person has asked me about using 31 round magazines in a Glock 17. I believe this is because that part of the IPSC PD rules are eminently clear.

I also note that, despite numerous debates about different aspects of IPSC Production Division, not once have you ever raised this particular issue, eventhough you've always known about Glock 31 round magazines. It's only after Luca stirred the pot that you latched onto the topic and, for reasons which escape me, made it your own.

Anyway, you have a right not to accept my reply, but I also have a right to decline further debate when I know that it will never reach a conclusion. No hard feelings, but going around in circles is making me dizzy.

[Jim Norman]

My G-17 came new with a pair of ten round magazines standard.  Are you suggesting that if I choose to shoot it in IPSC Production division I need to restrict myself to ten round mags because that's what Glock shipped with my blaster?

No, it's got nothing to do with "as shipped" or "as supplied in my local market". In the Philippines, the Glock 17 is supplied with "+2" baseplates, but they are expressly prohibited in IPSC Production Division. In Finland, the Glock 17 is supplied with an extended (and threaded) barrel in excess of the 127mm maximum allowed and "+2" basepads, but those items are also expressly prohibited in IPSC Production Division.

The IPSC Production Division Committee approves the standard OFM configuration for each gun. In the case of the Glock 17, this means the 17 round magazine. So, if you only have 10 round magazines, you're entitled to use the OFM standard if you shoot internationally.

But tell me something Nik. Why is it that the people being the most argumentative and dismissive of my answers in respect of IPSC Production Division, are those who never actually shoot it?

So, If I buy my Glock in Finland, am I screwed? I can't shoot the longer threaded barrel and you say I can't put in a different one. Or is that just that can only put in a barrel supplied by the manufacturer on the same gun, but then isn't this the barrel that he manufacturer supplies?

THe OFM limitation is problematic for the very reasons you have stated. Better if we decide what is allowed, IE, either a mag length or round count limitation, a barrel length limitation and an OR equal clause. It can even be a list of approved or equals, but I should not be held to the mercy of the OFM.

Jim

(Oh and I do shoot production and my gun already matches my boots, both are black)

[Vince Pinto]

So, If I buy my Glock in Finland, am I screwed? I can't shoot the longer threaded barrel and you say I can't put in a different one. Or is that just that  can only put in a barrel supplied by the manufacturer on the same gun, but then isn't this the barrel that he manufacturer supplies?

The only restrictions on barrels is (1) it must be an OFM barrel, (2) it must be either the standard barrel or an OFM option for the particular model gun and (3) it must not exceed 127mm in length.

As another example, due to the recent changes in Australian firearm laws, the minimum barrel length is now 120mm, however the standard G17 barrel is 114mm. In response to the law, Glock created what they refer to as a "17A" barrel, which is 122mm in length, and it's now an official OFM option for the G17, so even competitors in other Regions are entitled to use one too.

THe OFM limitation is problematic for the very reasons you have stated. Better if we decide what is allowed, IE, either a mag length or round count limitation, a barrel length limitation and an OR equal clause. It can even be a list of approved or equals, but I should not be held to the mercy of the OFM.

You lost me, but problematic for whom? IPSC has a barrel length limitation of 127mm (5"), which is why the G17 with the standard length barrel is approved.

This is the same allowance I explained to Nik. If his Government mandates a maximum of 10 round magazines, that only applies in, say, New Jersey. However if Nik goes to the World Shoot, he's entitled to use the standard G17 magazines which hold 17 rounds, but he cannot use a larger-than-standard capacity mag.

[Flexmoney]

...how does my trigger time have any relevance to Production Division rules?

Same question I had when you posted this:

"Why is it that the people being the most argumentative and dismissive of my answers in respect of IPSC Production Division, are those who never actually shoot it?"

Kind of ironic.

Moreover, as you've often dismissed my posts here as merely being my "opinion",

I don't dismiss your post. But, anything posted on this forum IS opinion...no matter who the poster is. We have the rule book, and we have "official rules" that are posted on the websites (by authority of the rule book).

You don't want people showing up at match saying, "so-and-so on the LIST said I could do xyz", do you?

We don't need to be gonig back and forth at each other. If you'd like to continue the discussion on the questions I had, let me know. If not, no biggie.

[Skywalker]

Well, looks like even if I posted it as a joke, it became a hot topic.

Now, I only have one question, and, please Vince, don't take it as an attempt to fuel up the debate:

1. if the Glock website lists four different capacities for a Glock 17 (as an example, but it is the same as per other Glocks) and this can be achieved via OFM magazines offered to the public,

2. and the same gun is sold worldwide with different magazines (regarding capacity),

what is the selection process that brings IPSC Production committee to approve the gun with one specific configuration, and rule the others as illegal for that Division?

I mean, what is the process to select the mag shape, dimensions and capacity, that has to be considered as "the magazine" OFM offered for that gun?

I'm not trying to stir the pot, I'm just curious to learn how the process goes on.

[Vince Pinto]

I mean, what is the process to select the mag shape, dimensions and capacity, that has to be considered as "the magazine" OFM offered for that gun?

If the OFM quotes just one magazine capacity for a particular gun in their literature or website, that's the magazine capacity we'll consider. If the OFM lists multiple magazine capacities for a particular gun, we'll contact the manufacturer and ask them to identify which is the standard capacity.

In the case of 9mm Glock pistols, the G17 is 17 rounds, the G19 is 15 rounds and the G26 is 10 rounds.

[Skywalker]

Fine, I can understand and accept it: a decision is taken on available data, and we will comply with it.

But I suspect we're somehow missing something in the rules/interpretations or, better, in the list of approved guns.

I mean, how can I tell if a device is providing "additional" capacity, if the reference point (beyon which additional starts) is not defined? Vince provided the info that:

In the case of 9mm Glock pistols, the G17 is 17 rounds, the G19 is 15 rounds and the G26 is 10 rounds.

But if this info is not available to everybody, how can I check if a gun is complying with divisional requirements?

Vince quoted Appendix D4 - 19.2:

19.2 Base plates and/or any other devices which provide additional ammunition capacity (e.g. “+2” magazine extensions), are prohibited.

Now, I really don't want to start a discussion on if an OFM mag that holds more rounds than those deemed "legal" for that gun is acceptable or not, the decision on the "legality"is not up to me, but I'd like to comment that if the above rule says "additional capacity", we all need to know what is the "acceptable" or "legal" capacity as OFM offered for each and every gun in the list of approved guns.

Otherwise, the above rule is not enforceable.

[Jim Norman]

If I were to use the OFM magazine, shorten the follower, or replace the follower and maybe use a thinner spring wire, or shorten the spring a coil or two, so that my G-17 mags hold 18 instead of 17. The magazine tube length is unchanged, no baseplate to add capacity was installed. Would this be legal in IPSC? I know in USPSA, it doesn't matter, we have decided that the limit is a fixed count. Sort of levels the playing field. I can only have 10+1

Jim Norman

[Skywalker]

If I were to use the OFM magazine, shorten the follower, or replace the follower and maybe use a thinner spring wire, or shorten the spring a coil or two, so that my G-17 mags hold 18 instead of 17. The magazine tube length is unchanged, no baseplate to add capacity was installed. Would this be legal in IPSC? I know in USPSA, it doesn't matter, we have decided that the limit is a fixed count. Sort of levels the playing field. I can only have 10+1

Jim Norman

It wouldn't be legal:

19. Original parts and components offered by the OFM as standard equipment, or as an option, for a specific model handgun on the IPSC approved handgun list are permitted, subject to the following:

19.1 Modifications to them, other than minor detailing, are prohibited. Prohibited modifications include changing the original colour and/or finish of a handgun, and/or adding stripes or other embellishments.

[driver8M3]

The reality is...the guy walking into check out the first match. The possible new customer...the one that has read all the gun magzines saying that you need "special equipment" to even be competitive...that customer doesn't need to see specialized $1000+ Production guns hanging off people's hips.

there will always be people who buy the latest, most expensive tools to compete. thats almost human nature...and you'll never stop it. and you cant really stop gun makers from selling expensive products that people want...and that also comply with the rules.

the real problem with a gun race only happens when you need to get the latest and greatest (and most expensive) gun in order to compete at the highest levels. thats not even close to happening in uspsa production. as for ipsc, i guess the world shoot will be telling, but i have a feeling that dave sevigny (and others) will continue to prove that you dont need the latest, most expensive gun to compete at the top.

[NPSA 86-259]

If I were to use the OFM magazine, shorten the follower, or replace the follower and maybe use a thinner spring wire, or shorten the spring a coil or two, so that my G-17 mags hold 18 instead of 17. The magazine tube length is unchanged, no baseplate to add capacity was installed. Would this be legal in IPSC?

surprise!

On the WSXIII I was using a Glock 17 which I obtained directly from the Dutch importer, who also delivers to the military in Holland. The standard magazins all can contain 18 + a half cartridge without the customizing you mentioned.

Oh boy, what will happen to me if I shoot my Tanfoglio Stock Custom in the catalogue mentioned as a 16 round mag pistol and I can put 20 round in its mag without customizing this mag?

[K.Lee]

Hi guys,

I've been reading the forum for quite some time now and this will be my first post. This is an interesting subject for me as I compete in Production using a Glock 17. I'm from Malaysia thus we follow IPSC rules.

As a competitive shooter, I too am determined to get the best and most out of my gun legally. My G17 has grip tape applied, extended slide lock and extended mag release lever fixed. I'm using Heinie Slant Pro Straight 8 sights. Guess that's the most I can do without breaking the rules.

Skywalker is right. It would be illegal to modify the OFM mag to cram in more rounds eg 18-19 rounds. I know cos I've e-mailed Mr Pinto a few months back regarding this.

However, I believe it's legal if one can fit in 18-19 rounds in a G17 mag without modifying it. In fact there is this guy in my club who does it. I believe it is possible cos the OFM mags are very well-used. I'm guessing the springs are not so boing! boing! anymore. Ha Ha!

Well, that's my 2 cents worth. Hope I've contributed something here and hope to participate more.

There's a saying back home that goes like this- It's not the gun but the donkey behind it that counts! Ha Ha!

Shoot safe and well. Later.