tightloop Posted July 8, 2005 Share Posted July 8, 2005 I like stories like that one above, but the truth is that there is NO reason that a pistol cannot be 100 % reliable and good looking at the same time....I have owned many that fell into that category.... Ugly just ruins the fun for me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 8, 2005 Share Posted July 8, 2005 Make-up costs money...and you are still stuck with a boat anchor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted July 8, 2005 Author Share Posted July 8, 2005 I agree that a firearm can be both good looking and a top performer. But I've seen all too many shooters who are so hung up on the correct "look" that they overlook faults in performance. So given a choice between ugly & 100% reliable and pretty & 95% reliable, I'll take ugly. You can always pretty-up an ugly gun, but some unreliable ones are never going to be reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted July 8, 2005 Share Posted July 8, 2005 I agree that a firearm can be both good looking and a top performer. But I've seen all too many shooters who are so hung up on the correct "look" that they overlook faults in performance. So given a choice between ugly & 100% reliable and pretty & 95% reliable, I'll take ugly. You can always pretty-up an ugly gun, but some unreliable ones are never going to be reliable. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I enjoyed hearing (on some interview, somewhere) that the Springfield custom shop doesn't bother making Robbie's guns pretty, because they know he's Just gonna grind on them anyway". Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 8, 2005 Share Posted July 8, 2005 I think it was at my first or second IPSC match ever I overheard two guys talking. One of them had just gotten back from a class with a brand-name shooter. (Blurted out with anxious expectation) "Well! What did his gun look like?!" "Rode hard and put away wet..." Talk about a let down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted July 8, 2005 Share Posted July 8, 2005 Heh. I don't remember what western it was from, but... "be wary of the man with a well-worn gun. he probably knows how to use it" B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted July 13, 2005 Author Share Posted July 13, 2005 One of the guys who used to shoot with us in the old days didn't bother with a finsih on his guns. He'd always be experimenting anyway, so what was the point? Summers here in Michigan get pretty humid, and guns would rust if you'd let them. What Mark did was simply to get a fine grit for his sandblaster, and after each round of experimentation he'd bead-blast his gun bare again. It was always this dove-gray finish, the color of bare steel bead-blasted. New grip safety? Fit and bead-blast. New sights? Fit and bead-blast the slide where the vise marked it. New checkering? Now that I think of it, I don't recall ever seeing checkering on his guns. But then I usually averted my gaze when he went to the Safe Area. Another shooter probably had frequent flyer miles with his bluer. Once a month it got dunked, usually to hide the impending white lines on the edges of the slide. But they both had absolutely 100% reliable blasters. Detroit can do that for you. Pack "In the City" and there was no overcoming a malfunction. Then again, match rules there allowed for backup guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Had an old Eddie comp gun that would feed empty cases off the mag......don;t believe I ever had a malf with that pistol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted July 14, 2005 Author Share Posted July 14, 2005 Oh yes, feeding empty brass. You youngins might not know about that. Back in "the day" it was the definitive proof that a gunsmith knew what he was doing, and could make your blaster 100% reliable. And some of the other things we did back then.... You tested a trigger job by dropping the slide from slidelock onto an empty chamber. Half a dozen times. You knew your draw was fast from hearing the slap as your hand hit the gun. A proper extractor tuning would put all the empties into a five-gallon bucket. Every competent IPSC shooter could do the Speed Rock" which is basically IPSC hip shooting. If you want to see a good rendition of it (and even tactically correct, too) watch "Collateral." The wildest one was a fad in the very early 1980s. Someone figured that your draw was faster if your weakhand was already there, waiting for the gun. So we spent a while drawing by throwing our left hand forward, and smacking the righthand with the gun in it into the left hand. Then some bright person (ahem) pointed out that we were sweeping our left hand. It stopped that day. At least around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted July 14, 2005 Author Share Posted July 14, 2005 The tale of how I came to own a Ransom rest. In the early 1980s, I'm part of "The Gang of Four." We met each thursday night for Italian food, talk and gunsmithing. We named ourselves after the group who lost out in a power push in the Chinese government. We had just made a multi-ton bullet purchase, when word got around: "185s aren't accurate." Oh shit. The best two shooters in the club were the source of this info. We were building guns, loading ammo, and practicing like mad. We didn't nee dinaccurate ammo screwing things up. But how to tell? A Ransom rest would answer the quesiton, but they're expensive. So we each pay a quarter of the cost. We dig an immense hole at the club, in the corner of one of the ranges, and sink a log the size of a Buick on end in it. We quickly learn how to use the rest properly. And find out many interesting things. The first thing we learn is that 185s are just as accurate as 200s. (Back then, .45 was the only caliber. 185 or 200 were the only competition choices.) We also learned that match barrels, properly fitted, were worth the money. And I found out that my reloads were the least accurate of the group. I'd gone cheap when buying reloading gear, and bought used dies. My dies had worn to the point that I was not making accurate ammo. My gun was more accurate using ammo one of the other guys had loaded. We also quickly figure out that if you stand your chrono out in front, you can accuracy-check and chrono at the same time. The source of the rumor? The best two shooters at the club had shot groups over sandbags at the end of a practice session. The 185s group was larger than the 200s group. So obviously, 185s were less accurate. Yet another lesson learned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 Is there any difference in the accuracy potential that can be detected between the 185's and the 200's when both were shot thru a bbl with a 1-16 twist? I wouldn't think so, but you did the testing, so you tell me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted July 14, 2005 Author Share Posted July 14, 2005 We ended up testing Bar-sto and Wilson barrels in .45. The variations between smallest and largest groups in a set was larger than the differences between the guns, using the same ammo. Change ammo and the extremes would differ, but the guns stayed within the extremes. As an example, (just off the top of my head) guns A,B,C,D. If A shot groups from 2"-4" in size, then the averages of B,C,D would be within 2" and 4". With Load#1, A might have an average of 2", while D had an average of 4". Change to another load, and they'd all shoot 2"-4", but with load #2, A would be 4" and D would be 2". As long as our loading practices were correct (good crimp, good bullets, consistent powder drop, etc.) we found that fussing over details was simply changing the icing on the cake from vanilla to chocolate. We had to get stupid, like using worn-out dies, or paying no attention to crimp, to turn out really bad ammo when fired in good barrels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 About what I thought it would be...thanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 Every competent IPSC shooter could do the Speed Rock" which is basically IPSC hip shooting. If you want to see a good rendition of it (and even tactically correct, too) watch "Collateral." My impression has always been that the Speed Rock entails levering yourself backward, to bring rounds fired from the hip up into your opponent's center mass. What Tom Cruise does in Collateral looks to me like firing from the retention position, with the gun much higher, and his body posture much further forward, than a Speed Rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 Every competent IPSC shooter could do the Speed Rock" which is basically IPSC hip shooting. If you want to see a good rendition of it (and even tactically correct, too) watch "Collateral." My impression has always been that the Speed Rock entails levering yourself backward, to bring rounds fired from the hip up into your opponent's center mass. What Tom Cruise does in Collateral looks to me like firing from the retention position, with the gun much higher, and his body posture much further forward, than a Speed Rock. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Cooper said: "This is the gunslinger's position, so called because it is the fastest way to get off a shot and because most practitioners rock the body slightly backward by bending the knees in order to start the barrel up toward level even before the weapon clears leather. In the rock, as used by a man (not a blank-shooter) who must hit a target--the grip is naturally one-handed, but the wrist and forearm are solidly locked. The pistol is pointed at belt level and fired as it lines up . . . it is a most comforting skill to acquire." --Complete Book of Shooting, 1965 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted July 16, 2005 Author Share Posted July 16, 2005 Hmm, speed rock vs. retention. I think we can agree this must be somewhat vague, as the tactical scenario presented had Cruise using his weak hand to deflect the first bad guys gun. And he's an actor, not a shooter. To be slighlty pedantic, retention would infer that there was some attempt or possibility that someone was trying to take one's sidearm. BG#1 hadn't a clue there was another gun in that zip code, let alone that alley. On the ammo, TL, remember we were testing .45s with at most half a dozen powders at our disposal, and three or four bullets. I'm convinced that you could load the .45 ACP with plack powder, matchheads or silo wheat dust and get it to work. (Say, there may be an article in there. Duane, no fair pitching it before I get to.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Professor Truth Be Quick speaks the truth again...you Da Man, Patrick.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Hmm, speed rock vs. retention. I think we can agree this must be somewhat vague, as the tactical scenario presented had Cruise using his weak hand to deflect the first bad guys gun. And he's an actor, not a shooter. Just an interesting (I think) piece of trivia, I was talking to Sandy Strayer a few days ago, and he told me that in addition to the usual ex-SAS guy (who Sandy saw shoot and wasn't impressed) Tom Cruise also got some training from Taran. TC doesn't strike me as the sort of guy who'll accept being anything but good at anything he attempts. To be slighlty pedantic, retention would infer that there was some attempt or possibility that someone was trying to take one's sidearm. Well, just to be slightly pedantic back it's always been my impression that "retention position" simply referred to the position. In a similar situation, I might have brought the gun up further instead of firing from a retention position, but I certainly can't fault Vincent for his technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted July 22, 2005 Author Share Posted July 22, 2005 Or his attitude, for that particular line of work: "I just shot him, the bullets and fall killed him." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted August 2, 2005 Author Share Posted August 2, 2005 In the early years of shooting IPSC, I also worked at various gun shops. Not always as a gunsmith, I spent a lot of time as a counter guy, and was always armed or within reach of loaded guns. And we needed them sometimes. I started working at "The Gun Room" owned and run by Mike Karbon. One day, I'm sitting at the desk taking care of paperwork, and Mike is writing up a sale. He's selling a customer an M1 Carbine, magazines and ammo. He wraps the gun in brown paper, as the guy is too cheap to pay for a gun case. He finishes, and watches the guy leave. Mike walks to the front window, takes a look, and walks back saying "Call the police, now!" Mike gets back to the door leading to the back rooms, grabs the shop shotgun, racks it and takes up a barricade shooting position at the doorway. The guy walks back in, holding the Carbine, magazine in the mag well. "Stop right there!" Mike shouts, and the guy freezes. He stood rooted to that spot until the local P.D. arrived to arrest him. Mike was suspicious of the guy (he had good instincts in that department) and when he walked to the front window, he saw the customer loading a magaizne, to insert in the upwrapped M1 Carbine lying on the sidewalk. The early era of IPSC had stage designs not just with names, but also scenarios. You'd lay out for the shooters the predicament they were in, and then let them solve the problem. We always "solved" the problem by hosing every bad guy in sight. But not every "stage" in real life has to involve dispatching a truckload of bad guys. However, scoring all the competitors as tied with 100% would make the computer explode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Had a friend who worked in a Sport Shop....kind of on the outskirts of Houston, in Seabrook, and one day he had three guys back into the parking place in the big Bemer and get out all wearing long black coats, they come into the store and immediately separate to cover all parts of the store...My bud anticipated that and had the other employees deployed at the far parts of the store...My bud yells in a commanding voice, "Hey, guys, you seen my new RIOT GUN?" and racks the slide on an 870 pump...they all look at each other and leave the store... Just one of many stories, I am sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted August 4, 2005 Author Share Posted August 4, 2005 Another time illustrates my jaundiced attitude towards "correct" or "tactically relevant" holster rules. I'm working late, and we have a relatively full shop. A guy walks up to the counter and asks for speedloaders for a 29. At the time the HKS speedloaders were new, hot and very much in demand. This guy is maybe 5'7" or 5'8" and wearing a leather bomber jacket. I put the speedloaders on the counter, and he reaches into his jacket and yanks free an 8" blued M-29. He wants to make sure the speedloaders fit. I'm just about ot yell at him and try to keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction when I see the badge. Another Detroit copper. I tell him "Next time, let me know you're going to pull that thing out, so the boss doesn't shoot you from the back room." He says "Oh, sorry. So how do these things work?" If a guy just under average height can conceal a cannon like that magnum hogleg, then who is to tell me that any particular holster isn't "concealable" or "suitable for daily wear?" You want it concealed, I'll figure a way to conceal it. As for "daily wear" my lower back will be the judge of what is suitable and what isn't, thank you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 You want it concealed, I'll figure a way to conceal it. As for "daily wear" my lower back will be the judge of what is suitable and what isn't, thank you very much. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Pity you are not on a "Rule Committee" that comes to mind... Actually, "committee" may be incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted August 18, 2005 Author Share Posted August 18, 2005 OK, some years back I was at an S&W Dealers Seminar. They plied us with coffee and donuts in the tent in the morning, while explaining all the new goodies. Then they let us loose on the various outdoor ranges with the guns and free ammo in the fresh air and spring sunshine. Can you believe that some dealers had no interest in shooting? I mean, free ammo, other peoples guns, what more could you ask? The new guns were the 625 (first ever) Mountain Gun and the Sigma. We're on the range with the Mountain Gun, and some clueless dude who can't hit anything, picks up and loads the M-G. He shoots even worse than he had before. Then mentions to the range dude "Hey, I can't get this open." After a few seconds of struggle, the range dude holds the cylinder latch forward and whacks the cylinder against the benchtop. It pops open. Inside, we find the swollen and split remains of six .41 Magnum rounds (Federal 210 JHP, full power). The S&W tech on hand gives the gun a five-second (and very thorough) look over, and declares it "good to go." At the Sigma range, they bust open a stack of ammo cartons, and let us loose. We line up to shoot the poor things, and in short order have them so hot you can't touch anything but the frame. To close the slide after inserting a mag, we push the edge of the slide against the tabletop. The three guns gobble up a couple of thousand rounds each as fast as a line of guys can insert and shoot their magazine each, then go to the end of the line and re-stuff the mag. On another revolver range, Tommy Campbell is helping out. At one point Tommy says that the key to good and fast shootig is accuracy. He can shoot a group of twice as many shots smaller than we can. I say "I'm up for that." I pick an M-66 off the table, load it with .38 wadcutters, and make a show of carefully lining up and holding and squeezing. After the first and only shot, I hand the gun to Tommy. "Knock yourself out." He grinned, called me a bastard (we'd known each other from USPSA/IPSC shooting for many matches at that point) and said to the rest "One shot is not a group. Anyone else?" I've been shooting and now writing for a long time, and I still don't turn down free ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyG23 Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 Had a friend who worked in a Sport Shop....kind of on the outskirts of Houston, in Seabrook, and one day he had three guys back into the parking place in the big Bemer and get out all wearing long black coats, they come into the store and immediately separate to cover all parts of the store...My bud anticipated that and had the other employees deployed at the far parts of the store...My bud yells in a commanding voice, "Hey, guys, you seen my new RIOT GUN?" and racks the slide on an 870 pump...they all look at each other and leave the store... Just one of many stories, I am sure... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I worked P/T in one of the local shops for several years. One day there was only myself and one other guy working the shop along with the cashier. Both the other guy and I were armed, I had a Glock 23 and he had a G19 IIRC, the cashier was unarmed. An unsavory looking "customer" walks in the door with his hand underneath an untucked shirt and starts walking very quickly to where the other guy and I are standing. The guy I was working with practices faithfully 200+ rounds per week and is NOT a competition shooter of any kind, he works on tactics and shooting from odd positions including alot of strong hand / weak hand and if I knew I was going to a gunfight he is one of a short list of people I would want to go with me....anyway, this guy walks rapidly towards where we are standing at the back of the store. I look over and my buddy's eyes are all white from where I'm at, I look and he has that Glock 3/4 of the way out of the holster and is staring at this "customer" like a hawk watching a mouse. This guy keeps coming with his hand digging under his shirt and about the time I'm figuring there's fixing to be alot of loud noise he stops and says "Man my back itches". You could have heard a pin drop. The guy asked directions to somewhere nearby and left. Did he have bad intentions ?? I don't know but I do know he came real close to getting shot and probably never realized it...or maybe he did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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