MKA-1919 XN compared to VEPR 12

[michael1778]

Hey Everybody,

I've found a few older threads on comparisons between the Saiga, Akdal and Vepr magazine fed shotguns. For the purposes of this post, I'd like to set some constraints.

1. I already have an XRAIL equipped Open shotgun. It's very reliable and soft shooting. It's also long, heavy, and not the most nimble thing around. So, I don't want to waste time with comparisons to the XRAIL. I like the XRAIL fine, thanks.
2. I'll head off one of our dear members and say, "I get it that the R&R Saiga is boss." So let's leave the Saiga out of this, arbitrarily.

Given those limitations, I'd like to open a new discussion on the MKA-1919 XN and Verp 12 platforms. I have seen impressive demonstration videos of the Vepr with various ammunition and it seems to shoot well. Cost for a base unit isn't awful. I get the impression that some parts are in fair supply. I (or my gunsmith) would have to make some modifications and part replacements with US made parts to reach 922r compliance. I see muzzle brakes, 10 and 12 round magazines, stocks, etc, etc are available.

The 1919 XN base unit is hundreds cheaper than the Vepr, currently. I think you might get more initially with the Vepr, so could be a wash. Again, someone would have to do the 922r compliance work. I can't tell when Firebird will have new complete shotguns ready for order again. Their web store talks about June. I'm hoping that was for this year and not next! If so, then it's an outdated store front and no current availability estimates are available.

I'm an AR fan and have familiarity with that platform. No disrespect to the Kalashnikov action, but I have no experience or affinity for it. However, my intuition tells me that the Vepr 12 may be race ready sooner after initial purchase than the MKA-1919 XN. But it's just a hunch.

If possible, I'd like to ease my way into the magazine fed shotgun world without making a huge up-front payment. That is the primary reason to exclude the R&R Saiga from this discussion. It isn't out of my consideration, I'm just setting it aside as a "yeah it will work but cost me up front" option.

I added XRAIL to a traditional shotgun since I thought I would be switching between competition divisions. Now, I see that I won't bother with that. If I were to do that, I'd actually do something more radical and try my hand at Heavy Metal someday, not Tactical Optics or its variants. That would mean the reconfigured VM isn't a helpful asset. My SuperNova is calling me.......

Anyway.......

So, grab a Vepr 12 and some 922r-friendly parts be a solid means to a reliable Open shotgun? Or would the MKA 1919 XN (also with 922r compliance remediation) be a better path for an AR familiar guy like me? Am I missing something important in all of this? (Very likely) Reliability is most important to me when comparing the platforms. After all the travel, training, time, and ammo costs, I sure as heck don't want a shotgun to crap out on me and wreck my match. The XRAIL did that once to me but it was entirely my fault for lack of familiarity with the mechanism. I'm lucky I didn't do any damage, just misconfigured it. Since then it has been 100% reliable.

I am really looking forward to this discussion since I know many of you have experiences and even a few strongly held opinions. I await your wisdom.

Edited August 19, 2013 by michael1778

[toothandnail]

They ARE available.

You can get a 3gun ready MKA for $1800, the only weak point we've found is the mags, which can EASILY be over come by tuning the feed lips.

The factory mags are not real consistant , 2 problems , feed lips and the mag retension hole is too low on many causing them to not lock into place, also easily fixed.

The factory is well aware of this problem, and are taking steps to fix the problem, not sure when the updated mags will hit the states, but they are working on the problem.

We have been shooting the MKA for a while now, and have got, IMO, a VERY reliable platform.

Another +, we can get ANY part, except a lower, not that there are any parts breaking.

Warranty is EXCELLENT on the few problems that have come up on new guns.

I know NOTHING about the Vepr

[compshootfl]

I agree on the MKA platform. I have been shooting mine for almost 2 years and the gun itself is reliable, with that said the mags are the weak point (but correctable as said above). If you buy one and keep it stock ($609) except for higher capacity mags, you will be very pleased and have a good 3 gun shotgun with 2 18 round mags ($375)for below the price of a stock Vepr. Add a burris fastfire 3 red dot ($225)and you are about the same price as a Vepr stock.

From there you can add tons of upgrades.

Edited August 20, 2013 by compshootfl

[Flatland Shooter]

If you buy one and keep it stock ($609) except for higher capacity mags, you will be very pleased and have a good 3 gun shotgun with 2 18 round mags ($375)for below the price of a stock Vepr. Add a burris fastfire 3 red dot ($225)

If you plan on running 10rd+ mags, you may want to spend a few more dollars on parts and make it 922 Compliant.

Cost of the minimum number of parts changed out would probably be around $200.

I've not heard of anyone busted on this but I don't want to be the first.

[michael1778]

It's hard to make these comparisons in an area where these guns are not run. OK, Garrett got a 1919 a while back, but I've never seen him shoot it once.

In some of the videos I've seen, the MKA-1919 seems to recoil more than the Vepr. But that's a bulls**t comparison since the shooters and ammo are different. Pat and others on this board have talked about the Akdal platform recoiling harder than Saigas. I haven't heard any real comparisons between the Vepr and the Akdal MKA-1919.

AR controls and furniture on the 1919 are a big selling point to me. I'd probably react better under stress with those controls due to familiarity. On the other hand, I'm accustomed to the recoil of a now-heavyweight Versamax with the XRAIL. I'm expecting a perceived (or even physically real) recoil increase just from basic physics having a lighter gun with a magazine fed shotgun. But I don't want to lose all the speed advantages of a magazine fed gun to longer shot-to-shot recovery times from excessive recoil.

As with so many things, I may be over thinking this.

[caz41]

Not to say they aren't out there, but I've never seen a vepr at a match.

[michael1778]

I haven't seen an Akdal in action at any of our matches either. Very few of us shoot Open. Of the two other guys that I am aware that do it regularly, one uses a long-tube FN SLP with speedloaders. The other shoots a Saiga. Clint Upchurch comes by every so often and runs his Open gear, too. One of our good shooters (also does RO duties some matches), owns a Firebird MKA-1919. However, I have never seen him run it.

In short, I haven't witnessed in-person any mag-fed shotguns in match use since June of last year. Past weekend's match had 72 successful competitors (no DQ, finished the match, etc) with only 4 of us shooting Open. I wasn't in the same squad with any of them.

Pistol improvements and one change on rifle will net me a pile of time and reduced penalties, but if I'm revamping my set up, I might as well look at all three guns.

[Sterling White]

There are several race ready 1919's in use. Check out the Firebird Precision website for videos.

[Alaskapopo]

It's hard to make these comparisons in an area where these guns are not run. OK, Garrett got a 1919 a while back, but I've never seen him shoot it once.

In some of the videos I've seen, the MKA-1919 seems to recoil more than the Vepr. But that's a bulls**t comparison since the shooters and ammo are different. Pat and others on this board have talked about the Akdal platform recoiling harder than Saigas. I haven't heard any real comparisons between the Vepr and the Akdal MKA-1919.

AR controls and furniture on the 1919 are a big selling point to me. I'd probably react better under stress with those controls due to familiarity. On the other hand, I'm accustomed to the recoil of a now-heavyweight Versamax with the XRAIL. I'm expecting a perceived (or even physically real) recoil increase just from basic physics having a lighter gun with a magazine fed shotgun. But I don't want to lose all the speed advantages of a magazine fed gun to longer shot-to-shot recovery times from excessive recoil.

As with so many things, I may be over thinking this.

The recoil comparisions I made were with a R&R saiga with a massive comp vs a Firebird Akdal with its smaller comp. A stock Saiga kicks quite a bit too. So without the comp your not going to see much of a difference between a stock AKDAL and a stock Saiga for recoil. The problem is the AKDAL can't take as big of a comp as I understand because of the gas system it uses.

Pat

Edited August 20, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[Flatland Shooter]

Some of the recoil differences may be the ammo needed to make these guns run.

At a recent 3 gun match there were two of us in our squad shooting open. I ran an MKA 1919 with Remington Gun Club ammo at 1200 fps. With the added weight of the new aluminum lower and several other mods, the recoil was not bad at all. Much less than the stock MKA 1919 with hotter break in loads.

The other open shooter was running a Saiga 12 with hot loads. With a solid hit on a steel plate, it not only knocked down the plate but blew it back more than 5 feet and halfway up the berm. I don't know how the recoil felt on that puppy but I'm glad it was him shooting it and not me.

Both guns ran 100% so no advantage on either side.

[Alaskapopo]

Some of the recoil differences may be the ammo needed to make these guns run.

At a recent 3 gun match there were two of us in our squad shooting open. I ran an MKA 1919 with Remington Gun Club ammo at 1200 fps. With the added weight of the new aluminum lower and several other mods, the recoil was not bad at all. Much less than the stock MKA 1919 with hotter break in loads.

The other open shooter was running a Saiga 12 with hot loads. With a solid hit on a steel plate, it not only knocked down the plate but blew it back more than 5 feet and halfway up the berm. I don't know how the recoil felt on that puppy but I'm glad it was him shooting it and not me.

Both guns ran 100% so no advantage on either side.

I was comparing them with the same shells which at the time were 1 1/8 ouch of shot at 1300 fps. Remington gold hulls. For what its worth my Saiga has gotten more ammo tolerant since I have owned it and now runs on shells as light as 1200 fps with 1 1/8 ouch of shot. About the only thing it is picky on now is some slugs it just does not like. Last match I forgot to bring slugs and I had to borrow some Breneke reduced reocil and they gave me a malfunction. I used to use the slugs until a few years ago when they gave me fits down in Texas. I now use Fiochi 1 ouch slugs now which are only going 990 in my gun. Not to side track too much but a friend of mine said there is someone new making AKDAL custom shotguns that uses a all aluminum receiver and takes Remington 1100 barrels. Anyone heard about this?

Pat

Edited August 20, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[michael1778]

It's hard to make these comparisons in an area where these guns are not run. OK, Garrett got a 1919 a while back, but I've never seen him shoot it once.

In some of the videos I've seen, the MKA-1919 seems to recoil more than the Vepr. But that's a bulls**t comparison since the shooters and ammo are different. Pat and others on this board have talked about the Akdal platform recoiling harder than Saigas. I haven't heard any real comparisons between the Vepr and the Akdal MKA-1919.

AR controls and furniture on the 1919 are a big selling point to me. I'd probably react better under stress with those controls due to familiarity. On the other hand, I'm accustomed to the recoil of a now-heavyweight Versamax with the XRAIL. I'm expecting a perceived (or even physically real) recoil increase just from basic physics having a lighter gun with a magazine fed shotgun. But I don't want to lose all the speed advantages of a magazine fed gun to longer shot-to-shot recovery times from excessive recoil.

As with so many things, I may be over thinking this.

The recoil comparisions I made were with a R&R saiga with a massive comp vs a Firebird Akdal with its smaller comp. A stock Saiga kicks quite a bit too. So without the comp your not going to see much of a difference between a stock AKDAL and a stock Saiga for recoil. The problem is the AKDAL can't take as big of a comp as I understand because of the gas system it uses.

Pat

Hi Pat,

Thanks for stopping by. I was hoping you would have a chance to chime in. I appreciate the extra information about how the two guns were configured for previous recoil comparison comments. That is very helpful to me.

Some of the recoil differences may be the ammo needed to make these guns run.

At a recent 3 gun match there were two of us in our squad shooting open. I ran an MKA 1919 with Remington Gun Club ammo at 1200 fps. With the added weight of the new aluminum lower and several other mods, the recoil was not bad at all. Much less than the stock MKA 1919 with hotter break in loads.

The other open shooter was running a Saiga 12 with hot loads. With a solid hit on a steel plate, it not only knocked down the plate but blew it back more than 5 feet and halfway up the berm. I don't know how the recoil felt on that puppy but I'm glad it was him shooting it and not me.

Both guns ran 100% so no advantage on either side.

I was comparing them with the same shells which at the time were 1 1/8 ouch of shot at 1300 fps. Remington gold hulls. For what its worth my Saiga has gotten more ammo tolerant since I have owned it and now runs on shells as light as 1200 fps with 1 1/8 ouch of shot. About the only thing it is picky on now is some slugs it just does not like. Last match I forgot to bring slugs and I had to borrow some Breneke reduced reocil and they gave me a malfunction. I used to use the slugs until a few years ago when they gave me fits down in Texas. I now use Fiochi 1 ouch slugs now which are only going 990 in my gun. Not to side track too much but a friend of mine said there is someone new making AKDAL custom shotguns that uses a all aluminum receiver and takes Remington 1100 barrels. Anyone heard about this?

Pat

So it's Akdal receivers with a Remington 1187 barrel??? Strange but interesting.

My local dealer has a new 1919 XN he is willing to sell me for $600 before tax. Hmmmm. I'm not really into gunsmithing, so I am researching what parts are out there for me to be able to replace.

Edited August 20, 2013 by michael1778

[RH45]

It's hard to make these comparisons in an area where these guns are not run. OK, Garrett got a 1919 a while back, but I've never seen him shoot it once.

In some of the videos I've seen, the MKA-1919 seems to recoil more than the Vepr. But that's a bulls**t comparison since the shooters and ammo are different. Pat and others on this board have talked about the Akdal platform recoiling harder than Saigas. I haven't heard any real comparisons between the Vepr and the Akdal MKA-1919.

AR controls and furniture on the 1919 are a big selling point to me. I'd probably react better under stress with those controls due to familiarity. On the other hand, I'm accustomed to the recoil of a now-heavyweight Versamax with the XRAIL. I'm expecting a perceived (or even physically real) recoil increase just from basic physics having a lighter gun with a magazine fed shotgun. But I don't want to lose all the speed advantages of a magazine fed gun to longer shot-to-shot recovery times from excessive recoil.

As with so many things, I may be over thinking this.

The recoil comparisions I made were with a R&R saiga with a massive comp vs a Firebird Akdal with its smaller comp. A stock Saiga kicks quite a bit too. So without the comp your not going to see much of a difference between a stock AKDAL and a stock Saiga for recoil. The problem is the AKDAL can't take as big of a comp as I understand because of the gas system it uses.

Pat

Hi Pat,

Thanks for stopping by. I was hoping you would have a chance to chime in. I appreciate the extra information about how the two guns were configured for previous recoil comparison comments. That is very helpful to me.

Some of the recoil differences may be the ammo needed to make these guns run.

At a recent 3 gun match there were two of us in our squad shooting open. I ran an MKA 1919 with Remington Gun Club ammo at 1200 fps. With the added weight of the new aluminum lower and several other mods, the recoil was not bad at all. Much less than the stock MKA 1919 with hotter break in loads.

The other open shooter was running a Saiga 12 with hot loads. With a solid hit on a steel plate, it not only knocked down the plate but blew it back more than 5 feet and halfway up the berm. I don't know how the recoil felt on that puppy but I'm glad it was him shooting it and not me.

Both guns ran 100% so no advantage on either side.

I was comparing them with the same shells which at the time were 1 1/8 ouch of shot at 1300 fps. Remington gold hulls. For what its worth my Saiga has gotten more ammo tolerant since I have owned it and now runs on shells as light as 1200 fps with 1 1/8 ouch of shot. About the only thing it is picky on now is some slugs it just does not like. Last match I forgot to bring slugs and I had to borrow some Breneke reduced reocil and they gave me a malfunction. I used to use the slugs until a few years ago when they gave me fits down in Texas. I now use Fiochi 1 ouch slugs now which are only going 990 in my gun. Not to side track too much but a friend of mine said there is someone new making AKDAL custom shotguns that uses a all aluminum receiver and takes Remington 1100 barrels. Anyone heard about this?

Pat

So it's Akdal receivers with a Remington 1187 barrel??? Strange but interesting.

My local dealer has a new 1919 XN he is willing to sell me for $600 before tax. Hmmmm. I'm not really into gunsmithing, so I am researching what parts are out there for me to be able to replace.

Send it to Jim at Firebird and have him do a full conversion. The comp makes a BIG difference. I'm running Remington STS light trap loads at 1145fps and didn't have a problem with the spinners at the Rockcastle shotgun match, or CMMG.

[toothandnail]

Here's 10 20 rounds through a MKA , 1300 FPS break in rounds

Edited August 21, 2013 by toothandnail

[michael1778]

Seemed reasonable. What as that on the muzzle?

[compshootfl]

Firebird precision will eventually be coming out with a clone of the mka 1919 , but it will be all US parts with an aluminum upper and lower, very similar to an ar15 in construction.

[gose]

It's hard to make these comparisons in an area where these guns are not run. OK, Garrett got a 1919 a while back, but I've never seen him shoot it once.

In some of the videos I've seen, the MKA-1919 seems to recoil more than the Vepr. But that's a bulls**t comparison since the shooters and ammo are different. Pat and others on this board have talked about the Akdal platform recoiling harder than Saigas. I haven't heard any real comparisons between the Vepr and the Akdal MKA-1919.

AR controls and furniture on the 1919 are a big selling point to me. I'd probably react better under stress with those controls due to familiarity. On the other hand, I'm accustomed to the recoil of a now-heavyweight Versamax with the XRAIL. I'm expecting a perceived (or even physically real) recoil increase just from basic physics having a lighter gun with a magazine fed shotgun. But I don't want to lose all the speed advantages of a magazine fed gun to longer shot-to-shot recovery times from excessive recoil.

As with so many things, I may be over thinking this.

The recoil comparisions I made were with a R&R saiga with a massive comp vs a Firebird Akdal with its smaller comp. A stock Saiga kicks quite a bit too. So without the comp your not going to see much of a difference between a stock AKDAL and a stock Saiga for recoil. The problem is the AKDAL can't take as big of a comp as I understand because of the gas system it uses.

Pat

The issue is more that the Akdal cant have the comp as far back as the Saiga (or VEPR) and work reliably. With a shotgun you lose pressure fast and since the Akdal comp has to be further out, it wont be as effective.

Personally I'd take a VEPR or an Akdal over a Saiga any day. However, between the Akdal and a VEPR it's a lot closer and more of a personal preference.

In terms of reliability and part failures, I'd rate them about equal. Price is close enough as well to not really be a big deal.

For the Akdal you basically have two US companies making parts, with mixed availability.

For the VEPR you have some companies in the US making parts as well as a few European companies. However, the Europeans have a pretty long history of competing with the VEPRs, so even if they havent been around that long in the US, there's a lot of good knowledge in Europe.

I wasnt going to buy a Saiga, so I went with the Akdal. Had the VEPR been around when I was looking at the Akdal, it might have been a tough choice. Now I'm too invested in the Akdal platform to bother changing.

I'd try to get hold of one of each and try them out and get the one you like the best, either one will suit you well.

[toothandnail]

Seemed reasonable. What as that on the muzzle?

That is a Kicks ported choke, Mod , the ports don't really help, I like extended chokes, makes changes easier

The recoil is not bad at all , muzzle rise is negilegable .

Edited August 21, 2013 by toothandnail

[Flatland Shooter]

Send it to Jim at Firebird and have him do a full conversion. The comp makes a BIG difference. I'm running Remington STS light trap loads at 1145fps and didn't have a problem with the spinners at the Rockcastle shotgun match, or CMMG.

Somewhere Jim or Chris made a comment that their MKA 1919 comp worked better the hotter the load. I then made the assumption that the recoil from the lighter loads would not be enough to justify a comp. A friend's Firebird AKDAL has the comp. I'll see if he will let me put a few rounds through it and compare the two.

I've been shooting Remington Gun Club (1200 fps) shells but they are getting hard to find. Picked up a box of STS shells (1145 fps) this morning and will see how they behave.

Bill

[michael1778]

I recently took delivery on an order of many Nobel Sport rounds the boxes say 1200fps, 1 1/8 oz, 7 1/2 shot. I hope that any shotgun I get can use these reliably. For slugs, I use Fiocchi 7/8 oz, 1300fps.

Any comparison would be welcome. At the moment, I'm thinking Akdal. The main question remaining is whether I buy a race-ready gun straight away or if I get something that evolves over a short period of time.

[gose]

I recently took delivery on an order of many Nobel Sport rounds the boxes say 1200fps, 1 1/8 oz, 7 1/2 shot. I hope that any shotgun I get can use these reliably. For slugs, I use Fiocchi 7/8 oz, 1300fps.

Any comparison would be welcome. At the moment, I'm thinking Akdal. The main question remaining is whether I buy a race-ready gun straight away or if I get something that evolves over a short period of time.

I use the Fiocchis in my Akdal and they work fine.

For shot I use AA 1145, sicne they seem to be the ones that work best. I also have some 1200s that I use if I need a little more oomph.

I've also tested the AA 1300 fps ones, but both the 1300 and 1200 ones definitely kick more than the 1145. Even if the comp gets better with more gas, its not enough to offset the extra recoil from the hotter loads. It might make the difference smaller, but its still there.

[michael1778]

Closing the loop, for the now.

I got a MKA-1919 XN from a local shop at a great price and plan to add quite a few Tooth and Nail Armory parts for immediate 922r compliance. Ordering a few spare magazines, also. My gunsmith and I will be busy these next 2 weeks.

The front sight base and carry handle are already removed this evening. May be putting up for sale the other shotgun stuff.....

[Jesse Tischauser]

Anybody know if R&R does work on Vepr's?

[Alaskapopo]

Anybody know if R&R does work on Vepr's?

Send a Rob an email I am sure he would answer you.

pat