Surprise

[Vince Pinto]

Vince, are there any rules about this: We intentionally set up a surprise-stage, no shooters may walkthrough. Let say, one day match, RO set the stage up in the morning and have enough wall or barrier so no one may see the stage from outside. A shooter, one at a time, enter the stage after LAMR and then look for the targets and shoot.

We used to have rules about "Surprise" and "Semi-Surprise" courses, but they were removed from the rulebook because they were subject to abuse. The reason is that as soon as one competitor shoots the stage, it's no longer a surprise because, well, people talk, especially members of the same team.

Having said that, there's no prohibition against such stages, but you must be creative if they are to be successful.

For example, when I shot WSXI in Brazil in 1996, there was a surprise course where there were six rooms, each containing 3 target stands. The number of Scoring and Penalty targets was identical for each competitor, but the target configuration would be changed by the ROs for each competitor. Hence, Room 1 might contain 2 Scoring and 1 Penalty targets for me, but it might contain 1 Scoring and 2 Penalty Targets for you (but other rooms would be reversed).

It was a lot of fun, and the stage seemed to work flawlessly, but there was still a walkthrough, so that competitors knew the general layout of the stage, and the only thing they didn't know was what to expect in each room.

[Neil Beverley]

There was a "Surprise" stage in the Europeans a few years ago and by the end of the first day there were maps being passed around detailing where the targets were and the layout generally of the stage.

The stage had to be withdrawn from the match. What a shame! What a waste!

Surprise stages used to be fun when they remain fair for all but the cheaters now deny that opportunity at most matches.

[Jim Norman]

So are Surprise stages still legal?

I would say that a roll of the dice or pulling a card at the beginning or at each port would be OK, no real way to tell the trest what to expect since the cards or Dice actually control how you run through the stage. You could talk all you want, but any two runs will still be "Luck of the Draw"

Jim

[Vince Pinto]

So are Surprise stages still legal? I would say that a roll of the dice or pulling a card <snip>

They're still legal, but they're discouraged. The example I gave from Brazil 1996 was well thought out, because every visible Scoring Target had to be shot, but of course you might encounter a PT-T-PT, a T-PT-T, a T-T-PT or another configuration in each room.

The drawback with dice or card "selector" stages is that some of the Scoring Targets are not to be shot. If coloured targets are used, the red ones might be Scoring Targets for one guy, but they might be Hard Cover for the next guy, and this introduces an (often confusing) memory element, which is why we have Rules 4.1.2 & 4.1.3.

It also goes against our "If you can see it, you can shoot it" credo, because some Scoring Targets become non-Scoring Targets.

Sure, I've shot and enjoyed such stages at club matches where the outcome didn't matter, but I would not support them being used at major matches, because the thing we're supposed to be testing are your shooting skills, not your memory.

[Jim Norman]

If all we are supposed to test is shooting skills then I submit we are on the way to bullseye.

We are supposed to be shooting a time stressed, somewhat phsically demanding, mentally challenging game. Remembering which targets to shoot at is an acceptable challenge in my mind.

If you look at how I describe the set-up, you would select one N/S color for the entire course, or you would get a different color at each position. Either way it would work OK. Now I would not want to see a course where you had to remember a sequence of N/S Shoot changes for an entire stage, that would not be fair. But if you can't remember to not shoot teh Star or the Green for 30 seconds, I am not too sure I want to be on the range with that shooter.

Jim

[Flexmoney]

I am in the camp of leaning more toward the shooting challenges...not so much the memory stages.

With the memory stuff, the locals have a home court advantage (or the setup crew).

The "change-up" stages...I could live with them if they were done correctly. Often, they aren't.

[blackdragon]

The only experiance that I have with a "random" Start stage was not very good. Picture this, 4 ports with one each hearts, diamonds, clubs, spades. A deck of cards on the table which was centered on the wall about 15 feet away. Which ever card you drew was the port you started out on. We were the second squad through. shuffled the cards after every shooter. Half way through the match, some squads were placing the card of the window that they WANTED to shoot on top. And yes I got a window in the middle of the array!

Ivan

[Jasonub]

for me a surprise stage is a stage that the targets shoot back or when you enter a door and there are no targets

dont hurt me for trying to be funny

[mpolans]

I love surprise or "choose your own adventure" [ala drawing a card] stages. The mental challenge is more fun. The key is having people run them that are dedicated ROs who put in the effort to shuffle the cards, move the targets, etc. You can't have shooters from the squad run people through them, which probably eliminates them being practical for most club matches.

[JayC]

I'm fairly new to this sport, but I think surprise stages are great. They are more than a mental test, they also test your reaction. When you do your walk through, you can program the target locations, but you don't know if they are to be engaged or not at this time. Then on your run you have have to identifiy the targets and react as needed.

Like others have said though, the RO's need to change them in between shooters. I too have had the bad experience at a match where you needed to flip over a card and then shoot the matching targets. The first squad did it right, but then the second squad started arranging the cards in the target order so the shooters new ahead of time what it would be. Needless to say it was tossed.

Just my 2 cents

Jay

[Vince Pinto]

But if you can't remember to not shoot teh Star or the Green for 30 seconds, I am not too sure I want to be on the range with that shooter.

Why? Does presenting non-standard target designations make him unsafe? If so, there's the clincher to avoid "Coney Island" courses of fire.

[Barrettone]

We did one where the arrays were all identical, but the 4 targets in each array were outlined in either green, blue, red or yellow. Just before LAMR, you would draw a poker chip, and that color chip represented the targets you were to engage. The others became penalty targets. If you really wanted to be devious, you could spray paint the letters "yellow" in blue paint and so on, as to create havoc in the minds of the shooters. Writing the actual color name on the target would also make it a fair stage if you had color-blind competitors. Just a thought.

Jeff

[Vince Pinto]

Jeff,

Don't confuse Surprise Stages with "Coney Island" Stages.

A Surprise Stage uses standard target designations, but placement of the targets within clearly defined locations is what creates the surprise element (see my story above about WSXI in Brazil).

In other words, in accordance with Rules 4.1.2 and 4.1.3, the plain tan targets are always Scoring Targets, whereas plain tan with an "X" across their face (or targets painted a single colour), are always Penalty Targets.

Using non-standard target designations is not only contrary to the rules, it arguably makes the memory element more important than the shooting element.

[Flexmoney]

Not to mention the 12.86% of the shooters that are color-blind.

Vince, your "coney island" comment is anopther topic...feel free to start another topic on purist vs. testing the shooting.

[Nik Habicht]

Don't confuse Surprise Stages with "Coney Island" Stages.

....there's the clincher to avoid "Coney Island" courses of fire.

I've never been to Coney Island --- but I'm pretty sure there are no IPSC stages there.....

[Neil Beverley]

The only experiance that I have with a "random" Start stage was not very good. Picture this, 4 ports with one each hearts, diamonds, clubs, spades. A deck of cards on the table which was centered on the wall about 15 feet away. Which ever card you drew was the port you started out on. We were the second squad through. shuffled the cards after every shooter. Half way through the match, some squads were placing the card of the window that they WANTED to shoot on top. And yes I got a window in the middle of the array!

Ivan

Ivan

The problem with stages like this, even if they are fun, is that they bring an element of chance into the results that the competitor can't control. In the example you describe some competitors end up starting at the middle window which can be an immediate disadvantage.

[Vince Pinto]

Vince, your "coney island" comment is anopther topic...feel free to start another topic on purist vs. testing the shooting. 

My dear Flex, I am on topic, namely "Surprise" stages, however some of our posters and their ideas have strayed from the path, whereby they suggest the use of illegal targets and, as Neil so eloquently described it, "games of chance".

[Skywalker]

Talking about "coney island stages", the following one is what we had at our second Level III match here in Italy this year (Denise, does it tell you something? ), is what can be considered (IMHO) a good example of fun, totally fair and equitable memory stage for all shooters, but indeed forcing everybody to shoot with brain "engaged" to avoid penalties.

As you will notice, it presents the same challenge to everybody: upon reaching the port, you are compelled to do the whole swing across targets, skipping the only one with the same colour of the dice (cast by the RO before the Stand-By command).

DB, perhaps was this stage that inspired Julius Caesar's "the dice is cast"????

[Dead Buff]

DB, perhaps was this stage that inspired Julius Caesar's "the dice is cast"????

Who else....

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I luv surprise stages. The problems with them have been noted....no more surprise after 5 or so shooters...

The "moving targets/PT's" stages are cool and we use 'em sometimes (behind a wall with a door, etc). We are also planning a jungle run surprise stage on a little mountain (club level only.... ) and since we're only a few, secrecy will not be a problem...

[Vince Pinto]

Luca,

If my dice shows BLUE, then the RED & YELLOW poppers are Scoring Targets, right? This contravenes Rule 4.1.2.2.

However putting that aside for a moment, if I was using a scoped gun, how would you, as RM, respond if I filed an appeal to Arbitration that having a red scoring target put me at a disadvantage, and I therefore request a reshoot or that the stage be withdrawn from the match?

POSTSCRIPT: To avoid Flex sending me to my room without my milk 'n' cookies, the stage above is not a Surprise stage. Since it involves dice it's, well, a crap-shoot (pardon the pun).

[Skywalker]

4.1.2.2 The entire front of scoring metal targets must be painted a single color, preferably white.

Vince, where is the above rule contravened by the poppers painting in the above stage?

Each popper is entirely painted of a single color.

Does the rule say that the scoring steel targets have to be painted a single color, and this color has to be the same for the entire stage/match? I don't read this.

Concerning the arbitration I have to think about it, but we had none at the match.

BTW, when I shot the match, I arrived at the port having forgot the NS popper color, thus shot and left standing the wrong one...

[Vince Pinto]

Does the rule say that the scoring steel targets have to be painted a single color, and this color has to be the same for the entire stage/match? I don't read this.

While you're considering my Appeal To Arbitration (which, trust me, you would get at the highest levels of competition), I'll move onto the applicable rules:

4.1.2 Scoring targets used in all IPSC Handgun matches must be of a single color, as follows:

...... 4.1.2.1 The scoring area of scoring paper targets must be of a typical cardboard color.

...... 4.1.2.2 The entire front of scoring metal targets must be painted a single color, preferably white.

Yes, "a single colour" also means a consistent colour, because if a rainbow of colours was acceptable, why did you only have one stage with multiple colours?

The recommended colour white is neutral & non-intrusive, which does not discriminate against any type of sights or competitors with colour blindness. However you can pick any colour you like (at the risk of an appeal to Arbitration), but you must apply it consistently, at least in each stage, but ideally throughout the entire match because, as I've stated earlier, we're supposed to be testing your shooting skills, not your memory.

[Skywalker]

Vince,

what can I say, the IPSC stage review committe that sanctioned the match as Lev. III backed this stage, without pointing out the rule breach as you have.

And, yes, we had stages with steel painted white, stages with steel painted pale blue, and even stages with steel painted pale yellow. In each written stage briefing the scoring steel targets colour was declared and read verbatim to each squad.

Moreover, according to your joint quotation of rules 4.1.2 and 4.1.2.2, it appears that considering "Scoring targets used in all IPSC Handgun matches must be of a single color, as follows:" and "The entire front of scoring metal targets must be painted a single color, what you are advocating is not only to be applied to a single match, but to all IPSC matches worldwide...

If this is not what is to be intended, then rule 4.1.2 is poorly written, since it should have said "ALL Scoring targets used in an IPSC Handgun match", because this reflects what you're advocating.

[Vince Pinto]

the IPSC stage review committe that sanctioned the match as Lev. III backed this stage, without pointing out the rule breach as you have. 

No comment.

And, yes, we had stages with steel painted white, stages with steel painted pale blue, and even stages with steel painted pale yellow. In each written stage briefing the scoring steel targets colour was declared and read verbatim to each squad.

What's the point? Why mess with competitor's minds? Don't they have enough to consider, without worrying about getting the applicable colours correct at each stage?

what you are advocating is not only to be applied to a single match, but to all IPSC matches worldwide...

Yes, but only in respect of using a single, consistent colour at each match worldwide, but the choice of colour is up to the MD. If we wanted white to be used exclusively, the rule would say so, rather than merely recommending white.

Now, what about my Appeal to Arbitration? The clock is ticking .............

(PS: Logging off for dinner - catch ya later)

[Skywalker]

the IPSC stage review committe that sanctioned the match as Lev. III backed this stage, without pointing out the rule breach as you have. 

No comment.

And, yes, we had stages with steel painted white, stages with steel painted pale blue, and even stages with steel painted pale yellow. In each written stage briefing the scoring steel targets colour was declared and read verbatim to each squad.

What's the point? Why mess with competitor's minds? Don't they have enough to consider, without worrying about getting the applicable colours correct at each stage?

The point is to have steel contrasting with different berms colour.

We have berms covered with grass, berms of brown ground, berms of reddish ground and so on.

By painting steel of different colours throughout the match we can ensure maximum target contrast with background.

what you are advocating is not only to be applied to a single match, but to all IPSC matches worldwide...

Yes, but only in respect of using a single, consistent colour at each match worldwide, but the choice of colour is up to the MD. If we wanted white to be used exclusively, the rule would say so, rather than merely recommending white.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough: by jointly reading rules 4.1.2 and 4.1.2.2, applying your interpretation, the colour for scoring steel targets has to be consistent throughout the whole world. Let's suppose on Jan. 17th, 2004, Level III match in Puerto Rico chose pale blue as scoring steel colour, then

4.1.2 scoring targets used in all IPSC Handgun matches must be of a single color, as follows:

4.1.2.2 The entire front of scoring metal targets must be painted a single color, preferably white.

all subsequent matches should have had their steel painted according to that.

Again, you should really consider the above suggested change to rule 4.1.2, because as it is it doesn't reflect what you are advocating.

Now, what about my Appeal to Arbitration? The clock is ticking .............

I'm kinda limited when it comes to mind resources, I can only debate one argument at time.

Hope I haven't ruined your dinner...