Titegroup & Precision 200 gr 40 cal.

[DaG]

Hey Guys,

I know this has probably been beat to death, but I couldn't find what I wanted to know under search. Moly coated bullets in a factory Glock barrel........Is it a no-no? Some say absolutely not, others have talked about shooting thousands of rds. of lead through Glock bbls. with no problems. Of course all that I have read on the subject has been over on GT.com. What do you think about Titegroup and Precision moly 200 in 40 cal for major? Is it too fast for the bullet wt.?,the barrel?

Any experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

DaG

[dajarrel]

DaG.

I shot several thousand rounds of precision moly-coats through a G17 and G34 and the only comment I would give is how easy it was to clean the bore afterward. The moly coat prevents the lead from shearing off in the polygonal grooves which is what I think the Glock problem is.

Another shooter I shoot with uses lead bullets in his reloads in a G34. When I asked him about it, he just said he cleans it after each use and has no problems.

As for the Titegroup, I haven't used it for 200gr .40 loads but use it in 180 gr loads and really like it. I also use it in 9mm, .38 special, and .45.

Good stuff,

FWIW

dj

[EricW]

TG and 200gr in major PF loads is dangerous territory. U Clays is much safer.

[rmills]

For IDPA shooting (Glock 35, SSP Division), I use a 200 grain lead (Vance) and 2.6 grains of Tite Group loaded to 1.141". Produces a PF of 128. Super soft, no recoil, absolutely no signs of pressure.

[smokshwn]

Hogdon lists a load with Titegroup for a 200 gr. XTP at 822 fps producing 31,700 psi (825 fps makes major). Although I agree there are other powders that might be more ideal for major I don't understand the DANGER DANGER warnings whenever someone asks here on the forum. There are several people who use 200gr bullets with titegroup in 40 without a problem (so far I've shot about 4k with no problem). In particular to your situation with a G35, Matt Mink has posted a couple of loads he uses with a 200 gr bullet. As always start slow and work towards your goal and watch carefully for pressure signs. Attention to detail and safety are paramount to loading in this game. Good luck, Craig

[EricW]

I don't understand the DANGER DANGER warnings whenever someone asks here on the forum.

Look at the numbers.

From Hodgdon's manual:

200 GR. HDY XTP COL: 1.125"

LONGSHOT 6.0 954 32,500 PSI

HS-6 6.3 900 32,800 PSI

UNIVERSAL 4.7 903 33,600 PSI

HP-38 4.7 857 33,400 PSI

TITEGROUP 3.8 822 31,700 PSI

822 X 200 = 164,400

825 X 200 = 165,000

Yes, you can theoretically make EXACTLY major with TG. Making major with any kind of a margin of error involves an OVERCHARGE, hence the "Danger Will Robinson" post. The combination of an overcharge load plus any bullet setback during chambering can easily result in a 40 caliber hand grenade.

I've used the same loads in 40 and have nearly blown up my gun doing so. Spending the extra $10/keg for U. Clays was a pretty easy decision for me.

As for Matt Mink, he's big boy and knows what he's doing. His loadings work with *HIS* gun.

[smokshwn]

Eric,

So by your way of thinking open class guns should be null and void due to the fact you cannot load above the manufacturers published #'s. There are many successful loads out there that are outside of the manufacturers numbers. My post was merely stating that with care you can shoot and reload the 200 gr bullets with titegroup. Many have and many do. If you will stop and take a second look at hogdon's numbers you will notice tha the tg load with the 200 gr is the lowest pressure load of the group and is also lower pressure than any load listed with 180 gr bullets as well.

[smokshwn]

Matt's post on 200 gr

DaG

Here's a link to the post I had mentioned before. Good luck, Craig

[EricW]

smok...,

Do you think there might be a reason why Hodgon cut off the TG loads at a lower psi? The charge-pressure relationship for powder is usually non-linear. This means that pressure can increase dramatically at the upper end of the pressure scale with only a small change in charge weight or case volume (usually due to setback).

Sure, lots of folks use TG under 200gr in 40. Fine and dandy. The reality is that they are shooting a load with a smaller margin of safety to very little benefit. I see no reason to, when there is a safer alternative that costs very little more. I, personally, choose not to risk blowing a $500 to $2500 gun and myself to smithereens to save $10/keg.

And contrary to popular opinion, it is actually safer to load smaller caliber cartridges (9 and super) to higher pressures than the larger diameter, i.e. 40 and 45.

[smokshwn]

Eric,

My only intention in this thread was to answer DaG's question. As to whether or not the benefit is worth it, YOUR opinion is different than mine. There are many people in our sport looking for the one load that suits them. There are many who are successfully shooting the load DaG was asking about, one of them being a GM shooting the same gun. I simply pointed him in that direction to find the advice he was asking for.

We can argue the safety margin all day, however the fact remains with careful attention and workup this load can be just fine.

[EricW]

I did answer the original question - for the fourth time now.

Who knows more about the performance characteristics of a particular powder - a handful of folks making very qualitative judgements by looking at their spent primers, or the company who makes it? (And has reams of hard, numerical data from in-barrel pressure transducers)

Hodgdon's max pressure for 135 and 180 gr bullets is 33Kpsi and change. They then drop the max pressure down to 31.7 kpsi at 200gr. Do you really think that was an arbitrary decision by Bonzo, the ballistics lab chimpanzee?

[SJ]

I have shot many k of Precision 200gr and 180gr bullets in my G20 without any problems, albeit with VV N320 and AA#5 powders. Can't help you with TiteGroup in a .40 but I was planning to transition to TG for my 10mm.

[smokshwn]

OK Eric, you win, I will finally admit that after consulting BONZO my load blew both of my hands off and I am sitting here typing with a pencil in my teeth.

Don't you think the legal department has something to do with max pressures printed in reloading manuals or is it really only the hard data? The max pressure numbers printed have a significant margin for safety before they are allowed to go into the book.

BTW if you will reread my first post I started it with agreeing that there are better powder choices. I wasn't advocating double charges, magnum primers, and super ballistic performance if you throw the book away. What I was pointing out to DaG was that with CAREFUL workup the load is possible.

[roby]

titegroup loaded w/ a moly =lots of smoke. try something slower, 320 or competition. masterblaster reccomends this...and it really works

[EricW]

What I was pointing out to DaG was that with CAREFUL workup the load is possible.

smok...,

I'm not denying for a second that it's possible to work up a major load using what was suggested and pull the trigger without the gun blowing up.

I don't have time right now, but one of these days I'll whine on about the danger of reducing engineering safety factors willy-nilly, which is exactly what one is doing when resorting to overcharges as normal operating procedure. Just because someone got away with it once does not make it safe. Getting away with it 10,000 times does not make it safe. Without taking into account the statistical variations in all the pieces of the puzzle, you have no idea if what you're doing is safe.

The max charges list in reloading data have a lot less to do with lawyers and a lot more to do with engineering safety factors and statistics. If the engineering safety factors on a system are reduced arbitrarily - more accidents will inevitably occur. It's a simple fact.

Mechanical systems are knowingly and deliberately over engineered to prevent failure in extraordinary circumstances that come as an inevitable part of statistical variation. Using that over-engineering to base your normal operating parameters off of makes the system less safe.

Hopefully Guy Neill will come bail me out. I've got to go study.

[Patrick Sweeney]

I'll step in as the DH for Guy, as he seems to be busy reducing the salmon population of Idaho or something....

There are two paths to assess risk in loading any combination of powder and bullet in a particular caliber. One is the published data supplied by those with "the gear." When a bullet maker stops at some pressure or velocity level, I take it as a hint. When a powder maker stops, I pay serious attention. The bullet maker cannot afford to try every single powder extant with his bullets in every cartridge case. The powder maker can. (And when a powder maker doesn't list a particular powder for a cartridge, they didn't leave it out because they were lazy or late with their assignment, either.)

An additional problem with fast powders right at the margin of pressure is the charge size itself. No powder measure throws exactly 3.8000 grains of powder. If your measure throws 3.8 +/- .02 or so, you may be occasionally throwing 3.82/3.83 grains of powder. That is not quite one percent. Add a heavy bullet (they aren't all 200.00 grains) adding another percent or two. Take a weak case, and set the bullet back a few thousandths, a few more percent increase. In loading a thousand rounds, your 31.7K pressure will vary just in the normal statistical wandering. Add in the extra percentages I just outlined, and you can have a round in your thousand that spikes at 35K, easily.

Which brings us to the second path for assessing risk: experience. The experience has been, of a number of shooters, that when they load heavy bullets in 40, with fast powders, sometimes you blow a case. And as the .40 Glock has a head start in blowing cases, why compound the risk?

Why do Open shooters "get away" with it? They didn't in the early days. "Super Face" was a well-known phenomenon. Today, those who shoot Open understand the things they must do to avoid it. The body of knowledge to do the same in the 40/heavybullet/fastpowder combo has not advanced as far. And given the success of other loadings, it may not advance. If there is no competitive advantage, there will not be wholesale adoption.

We aren't being old ladies (apologies to the tough old ladies I know) when we suggest that Titegroup and 200 grain bullets in a .40 might not be prudent.

[Dream]

I have loaded quite a few 200gr precision

bullets and have found n320 and clays to be

the best loads. they are the soft and muzzle rise

is minimal.

[wide45]

I have loaded quite a few 200gr precision

bullets and have found n320 and clays to be

the best loads. they are the soft and muzzle rise

is minimal.

In a Glock?

[Harmon]

4.5 grains universal clays 200 grain montana gold..loaded 1.14( i know, its longer than max, but it feeds and works in my glock )

4.2 U clays and 200 precision, same OAL.. both make major in my Glock 22. seems like a lower pressure load than most factory loads judging by the very minimal case expansion in a stock barrel.

[.40AET]

We aren't being old ladies (apologies to the tough old ladies I know) when we suggest that Titegroup and 200 grain bullets in a .40 might not be prudent.

I would consider shooting it out of a S*I. I would not try it in a Glock. Titegroup and 200g bullets may not be prudent in a Glock. Not to mention, it's not like it's the only powder available. You won't find much .40+p ammo that uses 200g bullets. It can be done, but why risk it?

[hoodhazard]

I have shot 10K+ precision 200gr fp/3.7-3.8gr titegroup.Zero problems thru myPara.No high pressure signs.Can't wait for David Longs new production stuff.FYI.

[Carlos]

I think Dream must be talking about UNIVERSAL clays. Straight, plain old Clays might be OK for .40 minor but forgetaboutit in .40 Major - particularly at short length & in a Glock .40.

Are there guys running straight, plain old Clays again in long .40 w/ the "new" major powerfactor? Sure, but there are also guys running N310 to major in .40. I am not that type of gambling man. D.