Green book head scratchers US 8.7.5

[Vince Pinto]

So what does it hurt for me to look at the stages, nothing. If I mess with the props DQ me. But don't take the N from my FUN and leave me with FU.

Jon, you're not prohibited from viewing the stages. The subject rule just requires you to ask permission first from the relevant RO or the RM, and I don't think that's asking too much.

[Jon Merricks]

Jon, you're not prohibited from viewing the stages. The subject rule just requires you to ask permission first from the relevant RO or the RM, and I don't think that's asking too much.

Close Uncle Vinn, I have to be given not just ask.

[shred]

The last thing we need is a blanket ban on seeing/walking through the stages unless it's the official walkthrough. That opens a whole can of worms we don't want (videotaping complicated stages, sending non-competing friends to do it, flying over in a plane-- anybody remember that scandal??, etc, etc)

[Vince Pinto]

Close Uncle Vinn, I have to be given not just ask.

Hell Jon, if you come to my stage, I'll not only give you extra zen time, I'll even give you a cookie

[Vince Pinto]

That opens a whole can of worms we don't want (videotaping complicated stages, <snip>

Now you see how deviously clever we were prohibiting competitors from holding anything in their hands during the walkthrough.

Of course the first sumbitch who does his walkthrough with a head mounted camera is gonna cause another "Don't be a PITA" rule to be written, and then people will beat me up yet again for infringing on their Nth Amendment rights and causing global warming

[ima45dv8]

Of course, with nobody around to monitor the fair and balance administration of 8.7.5 during the "pre-match" and the down time during the week before the main match we can't be certain that all of the competitors are being treated equally.

Interesting point. Are you therefore suggesting that the only stage inspection we should allow is the official squad walkthrough? Personally, I don't mind people having an extra look when the range is available, even during lunchtime, provided they ask me first, but now you've got me wondering whether I'm treating all competitors equally.

Whoa, big fella! Please don't go there (If I let these guys look around, I'm doing a disservice to those who didn't come over and ask if they could....). The rule looks fine as written.

Try to think of it this way -- You simply accomodated a request, within the rules. If someone else elects not to avail themselves of the same opportunity, that's their own fault. As long as you are prepared to allow everyone who asks the same peek-a-boo opportunity, you are treating all competitors equally.

[shred]

[Of course the first sumbitch who does his walkthrough with a head mounted camera is gonna cause another "Don't be a PITA" rule to be written, and then people will beat me up yet again for infringing on their Nth Amendment rights and causing global warming

Too late. I already have a "PoseurCam" mounted to my hat since you wouldn't let me walkthrough with the camcorder.. 2.4GHz is the same band as your microwave oven, but the heating is minimal in this case, so global warming might not stick

(that's why we have teflon heinies, right? to keep our global warming from sticking? )

Aaaanyway.. Is wandering around on a stage when it's not your squad's turn really a "walkthrough"? What if you have a roll of tape in your hand?

[Jim Norman]

Good Questoin. I think it should be that tehre is a standardized time reference applied to the rules. When is the match is over? When do the IPSC/USPSA specific rules cease to apply?

See Rule 6.6.3 (quoted on the previous page).

Problem with this rule is that if the match is one where the competitors shoot single day, but the match runs say three days and the MD uses internet posting for the protest period, the scores may not be final till say Wednesday following the match. THe last shot was fired at say 6pm Sunday, I go to the range where the match was held on Monday and someone that was an RO at the match sees me say hadling loaded magazines at what was for the match a declared "Safe Table" can he issue a DQ?

According to the rule you quote and with the parameters that I set, I would say he could and I would argue that that is not a good thing. I think that we need to have a better definition of when the match is over.

Jim Norman

[Vince Pinto]

Try to think of it this way -- You simply accomodated a request, within the rules. If someone else elects not to avail themselves of the same opportunity, that's their own fault. As long as you are prepared to allow everyone who asks the same peek-a-boo opportunity, you are treating all competitors equally. 

We have a winner. You can pick anything from the bottom shelf

Aaaanyway.. Is wandering around on a stage when it's not your squad's turn really a "walkthrough"?  What if you have a roll of tape in your hand?

Duct tape, no deal. Patching tape, OK, but I'd want to see you actually patching. There's a PITA guy on this side of the Big Pond who pretends he's helping out patching targets, but everytime he moves forward, he holds the tape roll in his outstretched hands and goes "Bang! Bang!". I was born at night, but it wasn't last night!

Problem with this rule is that if the match is one where the competitors shoot single day, but the match runs say three days and the MD uses internet posting for the protest period, the scores may not be final till say Wednesday following the match.

The way I see it, the problem is not with the rule - it's with the match management. If everyone can shoot the match in one day, I don't see why three days are required to post results.

[omnia1911]

One would think that "pre-match" refers to something that happens before the official match, and 6.6.2 suggests that there is a distinction between the "pre-match" and the main match.

Yes, that might be the case, and it's the MD's call whether the "pre-match" scores are included in the overall match results. If the people shooting the "pre-match" shoot exactly the same stages, I suspect most MDs would allow the scores to be included in the overall match results. However if the "pre-match" is used for debugging stages, and changes to the stages are made as a result, then the MD probably won't allow the scores to be included. Simple really.

6.6.3 seems to indicated the complete opposite. It includes  the "pre-match" in the official start time of a match, tournament, or league.

Rule 6.6.3 does not conflict with Rule 6.6.2. If there is a "pre-match", the competition has officially commenced, and all rules apply, irrespective of whether or not the scores from the "pre-match" are included in the overall match results.

If we take the Area 1 match that resulted in 6.6.2, a match that had the ROs shooting the weekend before the main match, it would mean the stages are now off limits to the competitors for several days, and any competitor that enters or passes through a stage during those several days will be DQed. Imagine being DQed a week before the main match starts.

Perhaps we have a different philosophy. Personally, I don't think you have any right to interfere with stages, and potentially alter the COF, regardless of when the main match commences. Do you have a good reason why match officials should give you a special pass to do whatever you like on the stages, unsupervised, during the period between the "pre-match" and the main match?

Of course, with nobody around to monitor the fair and balance administration of 8.7.5 during the "pre-match" and the down time during the week before the main match we can't be certain that all of the competitors are being treated equally.

Interesting point. Are you therefore suggesting that the only stage inspection we should allow is the official squad walkthrough? Personally, I don't mind people having an extra look when the range is available, even during lunchtime, provided they ask me first, but now you've got me wondering whether I'm treating all competitors equally.

If 8.7.5 applies until the final results are posted, there could be several hours from the time the last shot is fired in the match and when the final results are posted. A competitor is subject to a DQ during those several hours if he enters and passes through a stage.

Yes, because until the results are declared final, a reshoot might be required, so all the stages are still "in play".

I'm beginning to think that Jon Merricks might be right. Vince's interpretation looks like the rule is out to screw with the shooters.

You're entitled to your opinion, but it would certainly carry more weight with me if you didn't continue to hide behind a veil of secrecy.

I, and many others, have no intention of interfering or altering a stage when we walk through it. We aren't looking to "do whatever we what" to a stage by just getting up close and personal to look at angles of fire and figuring out where our mag changes might occur.

If you have problems with shooters altering stages, messing with props and calibrated poppers, shooting stages as practice before their own scored run, or walking through a stage while another squad is still using it, target a rule to DQ them for that particular offense. As it is now, you've taken a shotgun blast approach to a specific administrative problem.

Stop treating everyone as if they are all (potential) cheatin' weasels.

[Vince Pinto]

As it is now, you've taken a shotgun blast approach to a specific administrative problem. Stop treating everyone as if they are all (potential) cheatin' weasels.

Too bad you see it that way, because I consider asking the RO or RM for permission to enter the area for which they are directly responsible is nothing more than common courtesy. You see, I don't know the character or intentions of every competitor at a match, and I haven't a clue what they're going to do on the stage, so I'd therefore like the opportunity to supervise them, and that's exactly what the rule provides.

Using your line of thinking, why should we prohibit all competitors from handling their guns outside of a safety area? Doesn't this presume that everybody is potentially unsafe doing so? I'm 100% certain that if I drop my gun in the lunch shack, I'm perfectly capable of immediately reholstering it without supervision and without incident. Would you be happy giving me that authority?

Frankly, if it's too difficult for anyone to ask the RO for his permission to enter the stage under his control, the problem is not the rule.

[omnia1911]

The "pre-match" squad (scores to be included in the main match results) of the match officials, particularly those that set up and debugged the stages, are given unlimited access to walk through the stages before shooting them. That is the nature of designing and setting up a stage. Then, the RM bans some or all the main match competitors from examining the stages. Do you see any potential fairness problem here? Can we force their score out of the main match results because this occurs? I'm confident that in every case those that set up the stages and debug them are getting a better walk through and a competitive advantage over those that only get a walk through with their squad.

Everyone should be free to walk through the stages if they aren't being used by a squad, and they don't touch any props or targets, or keep the "pre-match" scores out of the main match in every case.

[omnia1911]

As it is now, you've taken a shotgun blast approach to a specific administrative problem. Stop treating everyone as if they are all (potential) cheatin' weasels.

Too bad you see it that way, because I consider asking the RO or RM for permission to enter the area for which they are directly responsible is nothing more than common courtesy. You see, I don't know the character or intentions of every competitor at a match, and I haven't a clue what they're going to do on the stage, so I'd therefore like the opportunity to supervise them, and that's exactly what the rule provides.

Using your line of thinking, why should we prohibit all competitors from handling their guns outside of a safety area? Doesn't this presume that everybody is potentially unsafe doing so? I'm 100% certain that if I drop my gun in the lunch shack, I'm perfectly capable of immediately reholstering it without supervision and without incident. Would you be happy giving me that authority?

Frankly, if it's too difficult for anyone to ask the RO for his permission to enter the stage under his control, the problem is not the rule.

Unsafe gun handling can result in someone being injured or killed. Walking a stage is pretty harmless.

[Jon Merricks]

Hell Jon, if you come to my stage, I'll not only give you extra zen time, I'll even give you a cookie

And I'll eat it with your permission.

[Vince Pinto]

The "pre-match" squad (scores to be included in the main match results) of the match officials, particularly those that set up and debugged the stages, are given unlimited access to walk through the stages before shooting them. That is the nature of designing and setting up a stage.

Access to the stages by the course construction crew does not equate to unlimited walkthroughs, by any stretch of the imagination. It's only after the RM declares that the stages are finished, that the "pre-match" can begin, and that's when the (weary) build crew gets a regular walkthrough, just like everybody else.

I'm confident that in every case those that set up the stages and debug them are getting a better walk through and a competitive advantage over those that only get a walk through with their squad.

And I'm confdent, no, I'm certain that you're wrong. But, hey, if you really think constructing stages gives you a competitive advantage, call your local MD and volunteer for duty, because I'm willing to bet my left cojone that he'd welcome the extra help with open arms, a Coke and a smile. The alternative is to increase match fees so that the MD can afford to hire a dedicated (non-shooting) build crew, but somehow I don't think you'd like that idea.

Unsafe gun handling can result in someone being injured or killed. Walking a stage is pretty harmless.

I'm offended that you automatically assume my gun handling skills could result in someone being injured or killed.

[Flexmoney]

OK..let's bust this nut.

The shooters fear some a-hole of a range nazi won't let them look the stages over...or worse, will DQ them for doing so.

The staff fears some a-hole of a competitor will screw around with the props and break stuff, or change things.

Both would seem to be rational fears.

[omnia1911]

The "pre-match" squad (scores to be included in the main match results) of the match officials, particularly those that set up and debugged the stages, are given unlimited access to walk through the stages before shooting them. That is the nature of designing and setting up a stage.

Access to the stages by the course construction crew does not equate to unlimited walkthroughs, by any stretch of the imagination. It's only after the RM declares that the stages are finished, that the "pre-match" can begin, and that's when the (weary) build crew gets a regular walkthrough, just like everybody else.

I've designed and set up many a stage. I thoroughly debug them by walking through them a number of times. Plus I get to walk through during the match. A bonus for me.

I'm confident that in every case those that set up the stages and debug them are getting a better walk through and a competitive advantage over those that only get a walk through with their squad.

And I'm confdent, no, I'm certain that you're wrong. But, hey, if you really think constructing stages gives you a competitive advantage, call your local MD and volunteer for duty, because I'm willing to bet my left cojone that he'd welcome the extra help with open arms, a Coke and a smile. The alternative is to increase match fees so that the MD can afford to hire a dedicated (non-shooting) build crew, but somehow I don't think you'd like that idea.

I figured someone was going to suggest that I volunteer to set up stages if I think it is such an advantage. I'm one step ahead of you, Vince. Your idea doesn't help much if I'm a day's plane ride away from the match. No need to hire a setup crew. Just keep their scores out of the main match results.

Unsafe gun handling can result in someone being injured or killed. Walking a stage is pretty harmless.

I'm offended that you automatically assume my gun handling skills could result in someone being injured or killed.

Sorry that you're offended. I'm only going by what I hear.

[Vince Pinto]

No need to hire a setup crew. Just keep their scores out of the main match results.

Voila! We finally arrive at the real crux of "the problem". You're still upset about the events which transpired at the Area 1 Championships a year or two ago. Anyway, here's the thing:

1. The rule is in force and it's the Match Director's call.

2. If you think the build crew have a competitive advantage, join the crew.

3. If you disagree with the Match Director's decision to include the "pre-match" scores, don't attend the match.

4. If you think the rule should be changed, contact your Area Director or the USPSA President.

I think that covers everything except to send my personal greetings to my old mate Bruce Gary, USPSA Area 1 Director, who had the testicular fortitude to make a decision and take the heat, and then to bring the matter to the Rules Committee, of which he was a member at the time, in order to find a workable solution.

[omnia1911]

Voila! We finally arrive at the real crux of "the problem". You're still upset about the events which transpired at the Area 1 Championships a year or two ago. Anyway, here's the thing:

Wrong! I was never involved in the Area 1 mess. Just read about it in the forums.

Actually, I admire Bruce Gary for taking the heat and coming up with a solution too. The problem is that 8.7.5 in conjunction with 6.6.2/6.6.3 has created some potential problems for Bruce's solution. I'd rather see Bruce's solution kept and everyone getting equal access to walk the stages without being denied by the RO/RM.

I know, it's your sandbox, and if I don't like the way you play, I can go somewhere else or stay home.

I also admire the work that you have put into the new rulebook, Vince. If I critique certain parts of the rulebook, don't take it personally.

[kevin c]

Truce, please?