kevin c Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 I was going to put this into Vince's thread on the LAMR vs MR commands, but figured it would be too much of a drift. Also, I'm sure there will be a million questions and clarifications asked for on the new rules, and I thought I'd get us started nice and easy: "8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions ...in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber...whether inadvertently or intentionally, the RO must not take any action..." In otherwords, if the competitor brainfades and doesn't load (actually fairly common in nervous and excited new shooters), tough luck? If so, I find that kind of harsh, especially on new shooters. Tough enough to recruit new people when they are already intimidated by the level of shooting they are seeing, now I have to stand by and let them embarass themselves publically. Opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tman33_99 Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 New Shooter, Local Match.....Of course you remind them, in fact you do almost anything possible to make them enjoy the experience and help them though. After a couple of matches the butterflies settle down, and you do less and less helping. Big Match, sorry they are on their own. Just my 2 pennies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 Kevin, This is an abridged version of the full history. If a competitor is personally responsible for his gun during unloading (e.g. if it goes BANG after "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster"), then he should be similarly responsible for his gun during loading, right? Consider what happens if you, as the RO, notice that Joe Blogs has not properly seated his magazine or chambered a round and you warn him, but later you inadvertently fail to notice that Harry Hoser has made the same oversight? What do you say to Harry when he accuses you of favouritism and he demands a reshoot? By "assisting" one competitor and not the other, you're directly affecting the outcome of the match. Sure, it might give you a warm 'n' fuzzy feeling to assist Joe, but you'll also be unintentionally screwing all the other competitors that you fail to warn. Hope this answers your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted October 22, 2004 Author Share Posted October 22, 2004 I see your point, Vince. It's just that recruiting is not the easiest of tasks in my neck of the woods. Personally, I'd like to lean more Tman's way - sort of a coach through, which, BTW, I wish was elaborated on in the rules book a bit more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 Cosnider what happens if you, as the RO, notice that Joe Blogs has not properly seated his magazine or chambered a round and you warn him, but later you inadvertently fail to notice that Harry Hoser has made the same oversight? What do you say to Harry when he accuses you of favouritism and he demands a reshoot? You say, "Why Harry, where in the little green book does it say you get a reshoot if the RO fails to notice you had a brain fart?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 More related rules. 8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot. 8.6.2 Any person providing assistance or interference to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 I'm having trouble finding where in the book it talks about a "coach thru" for no score? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 Hi guys, One more thing. Imagine you're in the peanut gallery at a major match, and an RO from host region IPSC Tabasco warns a competitor from his own region that he's failed to chamber a round during loading. Now imagine that the next squad includes a visitor from IPSC Guacamole, however the RO from IPSC Tabasco honestly fails to notice an identical oversight. Human nature being what it is, what's the first thing that would come to mind? ROs must not only be impartial, they must be seen to be impartial. ------------------- POSTSCRIPT: For local matches, replace "IPSC Tabasco" and "IPSC Guacamole" with "Mark Twain Gun Club" and "Huckleberry Finn Gun Club". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnL Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 At a club level match I always ask if I have any first time shooters. If I do I give them some assistence. Before they shoot the first stage I give them a bit of a walk through on what to expect at LAMR and ULSC, on keeping their finger out of the trigger guard while moving and reloading and on the 180. I tell them I will warn them once if they have their finger on the trigger when they shouldn't and when the get close to the 180. After that they are just another competitor. It's a hard call because we want to encourage new shooters but where and when do you draw the line? Do you only tell them the first time or after the second or third? Do you tell them they had a miss or they forgot to shoot at a target? I still make dumb mistakes on stages but that is on me not the RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tman33_99 Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 If a "New Shooter" does so well from my helping him enjoy the match exerience, that "Harry" suddenly feels like he is getting the shaft, then I am opening a new shooting school. "Newbie to GM Shooting School" My suggestion of helping a new shooter is clarified to be at a local match, at a big match, every one is on their own. We all know a new shooter has about 50 butterflies running in their stomach at their first match or two. Hell most are still trying to figure out the taping and brassing, then coming to the line, millions of things that "we" do automatically are consious thoughts. That friendly reminder at a "local" match may be the difference between Joe Newbie coming back or not. I don't really care what "Harry" feels. He will be back anyway, and if he can't differentiate between a new shooter, then IMHO he can go pound rocks. Tman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 This last weekend at a club match I was running a shooter that chambered a round but then didn't put a new magazine in the gun. There I am looking at his holstered gun with a big gaping hole where the mag should be. So I told him. I also told him that when the little green book takes effect he's screwed, but since we were still using the little red ipsc book ... IPSC Tabasco sounds awesome. Where do I sign up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 If it is a new shooter I'll mention it to him/her. If it is a veteran, I really hope they don't do this at a big match but keep my mouth shut. It's fuel for ribbibg later!! If fact, rumor has it that a new Master at our club forgot to rack the slide after loading the mag. He should know better!!!! We know if the shooter is new by the highlight registration draws through their name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 This last weekend at a club match I was running a shooter that chambered a round but then didn't put a new magazine in the gun. I witnessed the same thing with an Australian GM at the Australian Nationals in 1998 and, no, I didn't warn him. If I did, not only would I have directly affected the match results, I would also have affected Team Selection for the 1999 World Shoot, and that's not why I was there. Did I feel like shit? Absolutely. Would I do it again? You betcha. My primary duty as an RO is to do all possible to maximise safety. My second responsibility is to ensure that I'm totally impartial, and that I treat all competitors in exactly the same courteous manner, but without fear or favour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Baier Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 <Drift On> Last year I was shooting a local match performed the LAMR command when I heard my buddys in the backgound snickering. Well at the sound of the buzzer I engaged the first array and to my suprise my gun went to slide lockI forgot to fully load my mag so I reached down pulled mag and three shots later slide lock again oh crap, found out that I had forgotten to fully load my mags from the last stage. Well I had enough to finish but my time sucked. And my buddys well let just say paybacks are a b*tch. <drift off> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tman33_99 Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 Vinny, I agree with your call on the GM, especially at the Australian Nationals (or any State, Regional or other major match). I agree that is the only call you can make at that level of competition whether it is a GM or a 1st year D shooter. Only exception I suggest is local matches with new shooters. Tman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted October 23, 2004 Author Share Posted October 23, 2004 I'm having trouble finding where in the book it talks about a "coach thru" for no score? Flex: The ONLY reference I can find in either edition is on p. 13 of each book, in the section headed "Your Turn to Shoot" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 p. 13 found it. That isn't actually in the "rules" part of the book. But it does cover the bases. The score sheet reflects a "shoot-thru", meaning the shooter is not competing for match score (it would be nice if the scoring software would show their data...just not award any points) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 The score sheet reflects a "shoot-thru", meaning the shooter is not competing for match score (it would be nice if the scoring software would show their data...just not award any points) I don't know about EzyWinScore, but with WinMSS, I believe you can just record the guy as "sub-Minor". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 I don't know that we have that option. FWIW, I'd also like to have the option to show the shooters time, but not award points...for match reshoots. (We have done that by hand in the past ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 I keep seeing references to local matches but we have a new rule book which goes into effect soon so how about we start calling them what they will be, Level I. A local match maybe one that is 250 miles away. At a Level I match, I provide new shooters (unclassified) more information about the course of fire and safety requirements. I have even told them about a target they were about to go by without shooting BUT I will never compromize safety. At the Section match, Level II, I keep all my comments to Range commands. I don't ask if you understand the COF or make any other comments that might confuse the shooter. I ask the scorekeeper who the next shooter is and when someone shows up at the starting area, I issue LAMR. That competitor may actually be someone that I am going to be competing against after I am replaced as the RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 This is a true story. Not quite the same but relevant nonetheless. What makes me a little more upset is that the RO in question took his Level I Seminar with me. On the plus side I don't think he will do it again. I wasn't too gentle with him! The RO in question adopted the same attitude of helping a newbie. In this case it was a Short Course and the shooter had pulled a shot to leave a plate standing. In the smoke and dust the miss had gone unnoticed. Instead of "If you are finished, unload and show clear", I heard, with much emphasis "If you are SURE you are finished, unload and show clear". Now it took a while for the emphasis and meaning to sink in but eventually the shooter reacted and shot the target. I wasn't officiating but I was still the ROs mentor and so I asked him to review the timer to see the effect of his interference. The results: Short Course Stage 8 consisting of 8 targets. 8 shots with 7 hits in 6.4 seconds for a HF of 3.91 ([35-10] / 6.4) 9 shots with 8 hits in 12.2 seconds for a HF of 3.28 (40 / 12.2) And he thought he was helping! Sometimes if you want to help, don't help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Neil, Those sort of incidents really make me cringe. Anyway, as general advice for budding ROs out there, IF a competitor has left a metal target (plate or popper) standing, my advice is to immediately point it out to him after the "Range Clear" command and before commencing scoring, so that the competitor can see that he missed the subject metal target, otherwise he might understandably think that it has been inadvertently and prematurely reset. This will save everybody a lot of grief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 It is interesting that we are now forced to screw the newbie. What Neil says can and does happen. We've all left a plate or a popper stand, I've hit one, heard the ring and was gone, later it turned out that the hit was only a partial, or in another case a second hit on the front popper of a two popper array. My bad as is said. BUt lets keep this on track shall we? A new shooter comes to the line at a local/club match, call it waht you will, he is probably bervous as all get out, or if not then I am, he inserts a mag, and forgets to rack, or racks and forgets to insert a new mag. Rules be damned, he gets help. Move to a second level match, Sectional, Area etc., or a Nationals, soory, you made it to that level of shooting you're on your own. Same at a club match, after you've demonstrated the basics and are no longer a red and wrinkled newborn, you are on your own. I have to agree that getting and keeping new shooters is a tough enough job with out embarrasing them by letting them start their first match with a whole list of screw-up that are simply due to the new shooter jitters. We talk our newbies through a detailed walk-through before they run (walk) the course for score. One thing we tell them all is Walk, Don't Run, just move safely from target to target, shoot the targets and don't do anything to get a DQ. (explained of course in more detail) Most of our newbies come back and do so strongly. Many are here contributing in a very positive way. Remember, we were all new once. SOme of us can barely remember our fiorst shot, Mine was at about the age of 4. Others are adults that see this on TV and want to try. For some of us our gunhandling skills are more ingrained than washing our hands before eating, others have to consciously think about every step. Anyway, I say helping a new shooter at the start of a course of fire, or if he is obviously "lost" in the middle of a course is the right thing to do. Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 The score sheet reflects a "shoot-thru", meaning the shooter is not competing for match score (it would be nice if the scoring software would show their data...just not award any points). You can set him at whatever powerfactor is appropriate and then run him his own set of "meaningless trivia" combined (or separate division) results showing him where he WOULD have placed had he been shooting for score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 At a Level I match, I provide new shooters (unclassified) more information about the course of fire and safety requirements. I have even told them about a target they were about to go by without shooting BUT I will never compromize safety. I certainly appreciate the sentiment of going the extra mile for newbies at low level matches or during training sessions, however it's essential to explain to the newbie that he won't get a mulligan at a more important match. I've seen way too many guys screw up or get pinged at important matches, and they cry "But, at my home club ....... ". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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