USPSA classifications.

[Tman33_99]

At a major match...you are scroed off of the ONE shooter who has 100%.

Did you mean "scored off of the ONE shooter" or "screwed off of the ONE shooter"

Oh Well, I guess it comes out the same either way

[Ron Ankeny]

Wow, another old thread finds it's way back into circulation.

One of the forum members posted about the possibility of making Master through speed. I think the post was 3-4 years ago and I was probably a B class shooter at the time. I hollered BS, and in my ignorance I proclaimed a Master class pistolero would need to have the whole package, speed and accuracy. Man was I ever wrong. I many instances, a 1.2 draw, a 1.5 reload, and .25-.30 transitions will get you deep into M class in Limited if the fire control and visual processing is good enough to to insure decent hits.

Anyhow, I am over classifieritis. What a horrible disease. I am real close to GM in Production and Limited so I suppose I'll pick those up just because I can. Then I'll just shut up and shoot

Anyhow, thanks for the replies. There are a lot of really good thoughts here.

[XRe]

Just curious, since I'm sort of in this boat, now - what if I haven't been classified for 5 years, or so?? I'm sure I could go do a search or read a bunch on the USPSA site (if I can get to the info), but....   I was classified as an M in Open, and A in Limited (L-10 and Production didn't exist at that point). Am I going to end up in A for L-10 "auto-magically" ???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yup!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, the answer is "nope"!!! I just made it around to renewing my membership, finally. I'm still in the DB, believe it or not. I'm still classified as a Master in Open, and A in Limited. But, since I've never been classified in the other divisions, I actually am Unclassified for L-10.

Still have the same USPSA member number, though

[TriggerT]

You will be unclassified only until the point where you have 4 classifier scores on record. Then, no matter what % they are, you will be an "A" class L-10 shooter.

[BigLucky]

I definately feel the need to put my $.02 into this conversation, even if it is old.

I do believe that many of the factors used in determining classification in USPSA are most certainly upward biased. I feel that USPSA tends to try to put shooters into higher classes, whether that is their true ability or not. Now this is going to be pretty long, and I don't want anyone to take it as complaining because in the long run I will just adapt and overcome, but this is what this thread is all about.

Here are two examples to back up my arguement.

1. I have been classifed as a B Limited shooter - with 6 Classifiers turned in and an average of those 6 classifiers of 50.127%.

LIMITED Classifiers

Date Number Club F Percent Entered

4/10/05 03-04 RIVER CITY SHOOTERS OF SAN ANTONIO Y 75.2281 4/22/05

4/10/05 03-06 RIVER CITY SHOOTERS OF SAN ANTONIO Y 52.2405 4/22/05

4/10/05 03-15 RIVER CITY SHOOTERS OF SAN ANTONIO Y 51.6113 4/22/05

4/10/05 99-58 RIVER CITY SHOOTERS OF SAN ANTONIO Y 43.0988 4/22/05

4/09/05 03-02 AUSTIN LONE STAR P.P.C. Y 14.7873 4/11/05

2/19/05 03-05 CENTRAL TEXAS RIFLE & PISTOL CLUB Y 63.7976 3/08/05

As you can see 5 of those 6 classifiers were turned in at the same (or close to the same) time. With the USPSA classification system they only take the top 4 of those scores to determine classification. The average of those top 4 classifier scores was 60.719%. I would argue that the six classifiers is a more appropriate judgement of my actual ability. The fact is that I can shoot an A or B score every now and then, but cannot shoot above C level consistantly.

2. This years Space City Challenge was given a much higher esteem than I think it should have. I went into Space City as a C Open shooter in the mid to high 40% range. I shot a pretty good match, by far the best I have ever shot, and ended up placing second in C Open, shooting 63% of the winner. A couple of months later I went to Area 4 and didn't shoot all that well (I still have big time consistency issues) and was like 8th Open, shooting 47% of Max. I was looking forward to continuing to shoot at that level and get to where I could compete at that level. When I got home I had a letter from USPSA congratulating me on getting bumped into B. I am not to the point where I can consistantly compete at C and they are congratulating me on getting bumped.

I really feel that USPSA does push to put you in a higher class, whether or not you can reasonably compete at that level. I am planning on shooting L-10 for a while now, because it is the only thing I am still classified C in. I can work on getting consistent and still have the enjoyment of being able to compete with the people I am shooting against.

[MoNsTeR]

The bias is upward only in the sense that you never automatically move down.

I've been stuck in C for what feels like forever. My percentage is 59.7%. I basically always win C Limited at local matches. But I tank classifiers like there's no tomorrow, cuz they're almost all paper-only no-shoot-ridden speed-shoots, which I suck at.

Then I go and shoot 93.6% on Mini Mart, but that won't count because it's "too high"!

Come on, call me a sandbagger, everyone else does

[BigLucky]

The bias is upward only in the sense that you never automatically move down.

I've been stuck in C for what feels like forever.  My percentage is 59.7%.  I basically always win C Limited at local matches.  But I tank classifiers like there's no tomorrow, cuz they're almost all paper-only no-shoot-ridden speed-shoots, which I suck at.

Then I go and shoot 93.6% on Mini Mart, but that won't count because it's "too high"!

Come on, call me a sandbagger, everyone else does 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you not ever shoot big matches? I would rather Sandbag thatn Grandbag which is the situation that I am in. I shoot stand and shoot speed shoots very well, but am a few pounds overweight so don't run field courses so smoothly.

[MoNsTeR]

Do you not ever shoot big matches?

Nothing bigger than the state/section-level matches that the local clubs put on. Living in Denver, most of the majors are way, way too far away. The closest I know of this year was Area 3 at 600 miles. Our own Area match (2) is 925 miles away! PITA of driving + huge match fees + hotel costs = no majors for me, at least until I get another raise.

[Loves2Shoot]

I shoot stand and shoot speed shoots very well, but am a few pounds overweight so don't run field courses so smoothly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

TGO isn't slim and he does ok on the field courses Classifications are only a general guide. I think classification is mostly for those who care about the "prizes," or those who want to know where their skills rank throughout the sport and can't afford to make the bigger matches. For the second set it works pretty well, for the first set, well I don't want to comment on that.

Even the top GM's don't 95%-100% every classifier they shoot, just look up TGO.

[BigLucky]

I shoot stand and shoot speed shoots very well, but am a few pounds overweight so don't run field courses so smoothly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

TGO isn't slim and he does ok on the field courses Classifications are only a general guide. I think classification is mostly for those who care about the "prizes," or those who want to know where their skills rank throughout the sport and can't afford to make the bigger matches. For the second set it works pretty well, for the first set, well I don't want to comment on that.

I really don't care about prizes. What I do like is the fun and competition of being close to the top and competing for a class win. I don't enjoy getting my hind section handed to me because I am shooting in a class I cannot compete in. As far as TGO goes, I am glad for him, when I win the lottery and am able to stop working 70 hour weeks and can buy a place to practice I will probably get better too.

[Loves2Shoot]

If you win your class, you're generally ready to compete in the next class Just my observation.

Personally, I always found it more fun to be comepeting against people of more skill than those with less skill, but that's just me.

[BigLucky]

If you win your class, you're generally ready to compete in the next class Just my observation.

Personally, I always found it more fun to be comepeting against people of more skill than those with less skill, but that's just me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed, however, I didn't win my class. I then went and was 8th overall C at the area match.

I find it fun to compete with people that I am pretty close with. I also push myself against the performance of some of the higher class shooters.

On a side note, USPSA moved the guy who beat me back down to C class.

[Ron Ankeny]

The classification system is what it is, period. Dave Thomas has an article in the most recent issue of Front Sight magazine and in general I think he is pretty much on the mark. However, I think Dave leaves out a couple of issues. As I see it, the problem with the classification system is it doesn't test the skills required to compete on the long field courses in vogue today, especially the courses with a clump of targets here, a clump of targets there, and 15-20 yard dashes between them. The skills not tested go beyond the ability to solve the shooting problem as far as a game plan.

Here's my take. I came into USPSA with a pretty full bag of tools as far as fundamental shooting skills. However, I have never (emphasis on never) been very athletic. I was the kid all through school that always got get picked last for the softball game. I was that bad. I can't run for $hit and it is worse today than ever before. Last year I posted a video clip of my performance on one of the virtual match stages. Everyone who critiqued my performance told me I need to haul butt. What they didn't know is what they saw is all I have. I seriously doubt there are many top flight GM shooters who have gone through life with sub-par athletic ability, even if they have chunked up a bit, lol. Yeah, yeah, it's IPSC and there is some running with the gunning, but shooters of below (emphasis on below) normal athletic ability, who can shoot well while static, will in all probablity always shoot below their classification on those courses where they can't make up for their deficiency in raw speed through smoothness and economy of motion. I have shot several field courses that were flawless as far as technique, only to lose to younger A and B class shooters because they beat me with their athletic ability across the distances involved or through their flexibiliy getting into and out of awkward shooting positions.

There are several forum members here who have seen me absolutely burn classifiers to the ground cold and on demand on a regular basis as recently as a year ago. Those same guys have watched me as I struggle with failing vision, arthritis, loss of motion in major joints, and the mental game. They see me flounder at large matches and they bear the brunt of my bitching and moaning when I vent. All we can do is to constantly strive for improvement and continue to do the best we can. If the aging process deals us a crappy hand, if we think the classification system is flawed, if the course design sucks, and if people call us sandbaggers or grandbaggers we just need to shut up and shoot. Shutting up is the hardest part of the equation.

If a person has an M (or any other) card that they honestly earned through the "system" but they finish matches two classes below their "ranking", they simply need to pour a whole bunch of resources into getting better (which I have been doing). If that fails, just be thankful you were good at something while at your peak. Honest shooters owe no one an apology. If I fail to live up to my card, it's because someone who doesn't know me has projected their value system in my direction. That's their problem, not mine.

[Sam]

I know this one guy who is fast, awesomely fast. But, he don't see too well anymore. Lately it's getting to where his eyes focus alot slower than his trigger finger can run. So what does he do? Like any respectable cowboy, he shoots L10 all summer and beats hisself up 'cuz he thinks he's too slow and old. If he can't see, all the practice and dedication in the world just can't help that. But like most top level competitors, it's hard for him to make any excuses at all.

He finally broke down and ordered a new open blaster. ETA about six weeks. This is going to be sweet! I can't wait to see all that pent-up frustration turned loose in a hail of .38 super rounds! I think the whole summer has just been a great big learning experience. But hell.... I guess I think the same thing about life.

[Ron Ankeny]

Sam:

I am not talking about the vision thing, I am talking about the run over here, then over there, then up the hill thing. When it's 15-20 yards between positions, with 3-4 of those little trips in a stage, I am giving up more time in foot speed than I am capable of regaining in other areas. For instance, we had a lot of movement at the Jackson Hole match and I was pretty slow. The next day I shot in Dubois where movement was only a few steps between arrays, or even less, and I did super duper. No big whoop, just the way it is right now.

[Jake Di Vita]

Ron,

I don't know you or your personal situation, but it seems to me anything short of massive physical disability can be fixed with a lot of hard work? Please don't take offense in any way, it is not my intention. Just trying to help.

IPSC is not only a game of shooting....to get really good at it, you have to cross train.

I know where you are coming from with the athletic thing....I was never even athletic back in school, in really bad shape, couldn't play sports worth crap. When I started shooting I said enough is enough and just did what it took. Before you say I can do it because I'm young....I've already had major reconstructive surgery on one knee....the other knee will probably need it soon, my right shoulder is toast, left wrist cracks whenever I move it, and my right hand is still fractured from a couple years ago.

Unless there's a reaallllly good reason why you can't, just do it. If really sub-par athletic ability is the only reason....it can be remedied.

[Merlin Orr]

So Jake, How old are you? I do agree with you to a certain point -but - I know this. I can't run as fast at 53 as I did when I was 23......An old flathead motor won't rev to 7500 rpm no matter how much it wants to.

[Jake Di Vita]

I'm 20.

I'm not saying someone of "advanced" years can move as quickly as someone younger....what I am saying is for the most part, any weakness can be made a strength...or at least not as much of a weakness.

Look at Robbie for example....he isn't exactly fleet of foot ya know?

[Ron Ankeny]

Jake:

Here's what I did in preparation for Area One. Starting last January I went on a diet and I did some aerobic activity. I lost about 50 pounds. I was doing 30-45 minutes daily on an inclined treadmill with the track resistance set up fairly high. I also did some cardio stuff and upper body stuff on a rowing machine. But I never even attempted a wind sprint, not even one.

I am going to be honest Jake. Between my knees, hammer toes, hips, etc., running is a bitch, even for 20 yards. I so detest running, I haven't even embarked on a regular routine to address the issue. You are probably right. If I would just practice taking off for all I am worth, and f'ing dig in for just 15 yards, I could probably get better. Or I'll have a freaking stroke and tip over. Tell you what, you keep after that 3 second El Pres. and I'll work out a set of drills designed to get me going and hump it down range for short bursts. I'll let you know how it went next spring.

BTW, the guy I snowmobile with is my age. He tells me our physical ability will naturally diminsh over time, but it is actually quite slow for a guy of fifty years. He is also a track coach and he has competed at a high level in marathon races for several decades. A couple of years back, I worked with him briefly and after watching me run he told me I don't have the body type or athletic ability to ever run. He suggested I try another form of aerobic activity. However, he did tell me if I would get off my ass I ought to be able to get in good enough shape not to take all day to get across the street. I sense you are saying the same thing, but you don't know me well enough to put it in those terms.

[Sam]

Ron, yep I remember us talking awhile back about the 15-20 runs. That does slow us "more experienced" shooters down a notch.

Well I guess I can see where those stage designers are coming from....

If you can't shoot, then you darn well better be able to run fast!

[Rockwell]

For instance, we had a lot of movement at the Jackson Hole match and I was pretty slow.

You were fast enough to win the L10!

Congratulations!

[Sam]

....I worked with him briefly and after watching me run he told me I don't have the body type or athletic ability to ever run.

Good thing he's just a track coach and not a motivational speaker.

YOU WON L10! Contratulations!!!!

[Ron Ankeny]

Sam:

He's more than just a track coach, he is a very competitive marathon runner and a pretty good friend. He was speaking of running as a fitness regime, suggesting I would be better off seeking another form of aerobic exercise, such as swimming, etc. To put it in perspective, Tim telling me I would never be a runner would be akin to TGO telling Stevie Wonder he would never be much of an IPSC shooter.

As for winning L10, it's always nice to win, and thanks for the congrats. Titan Driver (Rich) won Open, Scott won Limited (Rockwell/Matt shot really well most of the time).

[SRT Driver]

After RO'ing Dave Sevigny and the others at the Nats, USPSA has it right.

If USPSA shot heads up and factored in majors only, there would be such a weight towards the bottom it wouldn't be funny.

Dave won the Prod Nats by 16% and L10 by a hair!!! With the top shooters in the world chasing him all the way..and they are no slouches either.

The "true" top .5% (this does not include the "paper-chasers") are so far ahead of us lowly mortals, we should be happy that they let us play the same game..let alone hold a card that is even within 25% of theirs.

Their ability is incredible!!

[Paladin]

Ron: it is all about being the best you can be!! As for physical challenges just work on them!! stop giving yourself a way out..your name sake Ron (Avery) had a horrific accident but he is back and look how well he shot at the Nationals..

All the best!!