pizzaman383 Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I would like to know if the Beretta 96 Combat with the 6" barrel is allowed in the USPSA Limited 10 division? I understand that you can't make any external modifications such as weights. However, it it is not clear to me whether the rules allow production handguns from the factory such as the Beretta 96 Combat. It has no compensator, no ports, and wouldn't be modified. However, it has a weight from the factory that goes with the 6" barrel. I've heard second hand that John Amidon has stated that it is legal to remove the barrel weight from the 96 Combat and then the 6" barrel can be used in Limited 10. I don't have the short barrel, so I'm trying to figure out how to compete without acquiring one since they're fairly scarce. Can any of you help shed some light on this for me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 The rules for Limited and Limted 10 state that (Appendix E, US Divisions): C) Any complete handgun or components produced by a factory and available to the general public for one year and 500 produced. G) External modifications such as weights, or devices to control or reduce recoil are specifically not allowed. It sounds like you 96 Combat (combo) meets those rules. BTW, is this a picture of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pizzaman383 Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 BTW, is this a picture of it? Yes, that's the one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Is that a port in the barrel? If so, it's to Open division for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pizzaman383 Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 Is that a port in the barrel? If so, it's to Open division for you. There are no ports or compensators. The blocky object in front of the slide is a weight; it's kind of like a slide extension, but it is solid. The piece that looks like it might be a port is a retaining ring nut that holds the weight and a barrel bushing in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 still open. the added weight does it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pizzaman383 Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 still open. the added weight does it. That's what I had heard. So, can I remove the weight and shoot Limited 10? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 still open. the added weight does it. I don't think I agree. Under what rule? It is a factory part that comes with the gun, not an add on weight, right? It's not a modification. As long as the fatory has meet the production numbers it should be legal in Limited/10, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 I don't know, but I want one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rishii Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 looks like a pin gun from 20 years ago, before comps, they add weight to an 6" barrel to control muzzle rise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 Pizza - on issues such as this, your best bet is to email Amidon directly with your question. We can all give you our *best guesses*, but they're still just guesses I would say that clearly falls under "device to reduce recoil" which would mean that it is NOT legal for Limited and Limited 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pizzaman383 Posted October 6, 2004 Author Share Posted October 6, 2004 Pizza - on issues such as this, your best bet is to email Amidon directly with your question. I've tried posting on the USPSA rules forum to get an official answer, but I haven't had any response. So, I posted here ;-). I'm not sure how to contact John directly, so I'm in a waiting game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 SG, While I agree it is used to reduced recoil, it is not an external modification, right? It is just the way the gun is built. Perhaps, not unlike an extended dust-cover like those found on S_I frames? I can't see where the rules don't allow it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 I'm not sure how to contact John directly, so I'm in a waiting game. You can contact John Amidon by email by clicking on jamidon1@twcny.rr.com - tell him Vinny sent you. FWIW, I agree with Flex that the subject gun is legal for Limited/L10, because the gun is not modified (that's the way it comes from the factory), and the minimum quantity have been produced, but this is just speculation. My old mate John is keeper of the stone tablets when it comes to Limited/L10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 FWIW, I agree with Flex that the subject gun is legal for Limited/L10, because the gun is not modified (that's the way it comes from the factory), and the minimum quantity have been produced, but this is just speculation. My old mate John is keeper of the stone tablets when it comes to Limited/L10 What?? Darth agrees with Flex?? Have I missed something, or is there a disruption in The Force? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 The force is deteriorating....run for your lives!.................Flex and Vince are teaming up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 I did stop by Hooters the other day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pizzaman383 Posted October 8, 2004 Author Share Posted October 8, 2004 Folks, Here is a minimally edited version of my interaction with John Amidon on this subject. John gave me permission to post this. ----- Original Message ----- From: Curtis Ide Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 4:50 PM To: John Amidon Subject: A USPSA division question John, I was referred to you from Vinny on Brian Enos' forums. I've recently rejoined USPSA after a fifteen year absence. A lot has changed with the rules since then. I posted this question on the USPSA Rules forum but I haven't seen an answer: I would like to know if the Beretta 96 Combat with the 6" barrel is allowed in the USPSA Limited 10 division? The rules for Limited 10 say production guns only. And they also say external modifications such as weights, or devices to control or reduce recoil are specifically not allowed. I understand that you can't make any external modifications such as weights. However, it it is not clear to me whether the rules allow production handguns that have weights from the factory such as the Beretta 96 Combat. It has no compensator, no ports, and wouldn't be modified; however, it has a weight from the factory that goes with the 6" barrel. I've seen two interpretations of the rule discussed and I have my own interpretation. In the end, my opinion doesn't matter. I'd like to understand an official ruling. In which USPSA divisions can the Beretta 96 Combat with the 6" barrel be used? If it isn't legal in Limited 10 with the weight, will it be legal if I remove the weight (or is that a modification that would cause it to be disallowed in Limited)? Here are two links that provide information about the gun: http://www.berettaweb.com/92%20Combat/Beretta%20Combat.htm http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearm...l/ber92com.html I've also attached a PDF that shows an exploded parts diagram. The Combat comes in two configurations. One has a short barrel and the other is a long barrel. The short barrel version is very rare and I don't have the short barrel ;-(. The long-barrel version uses the same slide as the short-barrel version. There is a weight that attaches to the barrel; you'll see it in the pictures and in the exploded diagram. Beretta calls it a counterweight sleeve. The gun is meant to be used with the long barrel in conjunction with the weight. However, it can be assembled without the weight. Thanks, Curtis -----Original Message----- From: John Amidon Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 10:25 PM To: Curtis Ide Subject: Re: A USPSA division question Hi Curtis, After reviewing the info you have provided, thank you, and the fact that Berretta calls it a counterweight and it is added or detached, I would have to rule that this gun would be legal as is in Open division only, however, if the counterweight was removed, it would be legal in Limited and Limited 10 with the 6" barrel. the reason for this ruling is page 92 appendix E item g) for Limited and page 94 item g) for Limited 10. Hope this helps. Regards, John Amidon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 Amidon needs to get to a Hooters...quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 The force is deteriorating....run for your lives!.................Flex and Vince are teaming up! What a shame that on one of the few items we agree, we're both wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 ahh...no were not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 ahh...no were not. Agreed... and it's quite sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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