Major problem with Lyman Reloading Handbook: bad data

[Dougga]

I'm new to reloading and was told the Lyman Reloading Handbook is concidered to be a definitive guide for this art. It came with the $1000 package of reloading equipment recommended here on Brian Enos' site. I have a .45 ACP pistol and have been focusing exclusively on this caliber.

The section of this book dedicated to this venerable caliber is 3 pages long: one of text, two of data relating to specific bullet types. I have two bullets, one full metal jacket at 230 grains & one lead cast also at 230 gr.

The text states the following on page 380: "...the shooter should not size cast bullets larger than .451 due to chamber dimentions."

I am fairly sure this is a very significant error that will have all shooters using undersized bullets. This will reduce accuracy and increase leading creating lots of extra work for those who follow the author's guidance.

In the section focusing on my bullet-type, the author gives reference loads for a 230grain TMJ bullet. I have 700X powder and on page 382 the book give the following load information for IMR 700X powder: a minimum load of 3.6 grains with a maximum load of 4.8.

I loaded cartridges at 3.6, 4.0, and 4.2 grains for the first outing.

I shot 200 rounds and the gun smoked incredibly, misfired several times.

During troubleshooting and after 2 hours of cleaning we found that the manufacturer of the powder has the following reference loads for 230gr jacketed bullets:

Bullet Dia. C.O.L. Min fps Pressure Max fps Max Pressure

230gr FMJ .451" 1.200" 4.4 758 12,700 CUP 4.9 842 16,600 CUP

The alignment of the text got messed up, but it shows a Minimum of 4.4 grains with a max of 4.9!!! The Lyman manual has a minimum of 3.6 grains. That's nearly 20% off!

Lyman has grossly understated the minimum loads causing an enormous waste of time and poor performance. Had they overstated instead I might not have fingers with which to type this message (or worse).

I don't feel this is a source I can trust.

They evidently have been publishing this book for over 100 years. At some point the process of collecting and vetting the data seems to have run off the rails. I don't believe it is safe to use this book or even publisher as a reference source for reloading data. The quality of the data is unconscionable.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Dougga

[WidowsSon683]

10-4. I was gonna pick one up as a second reference/ cross check book. Not anymore. Besides you can find all the load data you need on the internet.

[Babaganoosh]

10-4. I was gonna pick one up as a second reference/ cross check book. Not anymore. Besides you can find all the load data you need on the internet.

[WidowsSon683]

Bonjour!

[splitime]

I think this is why I've always heard people say check two different books first.

[Poppa Bear]

.451 would be the correct size for cast bullets. You will notice that they both stop at the same approximate point, 4.8 on one and 4.9 on the other. The difference is in the starting point. I would rather start low than to start at close to max charge. Most people who load 700X will use around 4.4 to 4.8 grains, but it is usable below there for some soft loads. It is my understanding that it is similar to Clays in that pressure goes up real quick as you approach max charge.

[prebancolt]

around

.451 would be the correct size for cast bullets. You will notice that they both stop at the same approximate point, 4.8 on one and 4.9 on the other. The difference is in the starting point. I would rather start low than to start at close to max charge. Most people who load 700X will use around 4.4 to 4.8 grains, but it is usable below there for some soft loads. It is my understanding that it is similar to Clays in that pressure goes up real quick as you approach max charge.

Same experience here. I always start low with around 5 rounds through a chrony untilI get to where I need to be. And 700x DOES begin to spike very fast, so one has to be careful with it near max loads.

[DRider8]

The Lyman 49th edition is a good reloading manual. The starting points and ending points are within safe areas, all powder have safe starting and ending ranges, that is why chrono's are used to find out what is exceptable to you. There are very few that have the same exact data, that is why more than one manual is suggested to be used. You can start at a low powder level and work your way up to find something thing exceptable to you within those ranges.

[anachronism]

Cast bullet sizing is an issue that is unique to the firearm involved. I always "slug" the bore/chamber/throat area to determine proper cast bullet diameter. Cast bullets should be .001 to .002 over the bore diameter, not to exceed the chamber dimensions with the finished cartridge. In short, first the loaded cartridge must chamber correctly. In some chambers you can use larger diameter bullets. I have a Colt 1911 with a factory barrel that will easily chamber cartridges with .454 sized bullets. My custom Springfield won't chamber this load at all. BTW, the Colt LOVES this load, but I'm now using a custom .453 sizer that pleases both guns because I won't keep ammo around that only works in one gun. In some production guns, the chambers and throat are really tight, and .451 is what you need to use. Many match barrels seem to be like this. I believe Lyman is probably starting everybody out at .451 because that diameter should safely chamber in any gun. Any published data need to be safe in modern guns, blah, blah, blah. It's up to the end user to fine tune the details for best performance in their individual guns. Hopefully what I just tried to write makes sense, I hate it when my posts end up looking like I wrote them whilst in my cups...

[glynnm45]

Cast bullet sizing is an issue that is unique to the firearm involved. I always "slug" the bore/chamber/throat area to determine proper cast bullet diameter. Cast bullets should be .001 to .002 over the bore diameter, not to exceed the chamber dimensions with the finished cartridge. In short, first the loaded cartridge must chamber correctly. In some chambers you can use larger diameter bullets. I have a Colt 1911 with a factory barrel that will easily chamber cartridges with .454 sized bullets. My custom Springfield won't chamber this load at all. BTW, the Colt LOVES this load, but I'm now using a custom .453 sizer that pleases both guns because I won't keep ammo around that only works in one gun. In some production guns, the chambers and throat are really tight, and .451 is what you need to use. Many match barrels seem to be like this. I believe Lyman is probably starting everybody out at .451 because that diameter should safely chamber in any gun. Any published data need to be safe in modern guns, blah, blah, blah. It's up to the end user to fine tune the details for best performance in their individual guns. Hopefully what I just tried to write makes sense, I hate it when my posts end up looking like I wrote them whilst in my cups...

Absolutely correct!! I slug ALL my barrels before sizing my home cast bullets. Not only is it the safe thing to do, it provides for a most accurate and Lead-free experience. I have 2 .45ACP's that both like .452 cast.

[Buzi]

Lots of great replies in this thread. I'll just repeat what another said. Do not rely on one source. Period.

In my use I use 6 different books to cross refer to when building a new load. Some are old ones that date to 70's and 80's others

are late model ones published in the last few years.

If I had to tell a new guy and be his Elmer I'd tell him get at least 3 reference books. Yes, these days kids can go internet too. I'd still want the books but

I"m old and grumpy.

[mlmiller1]

For future purposes, most folks will load maybe 10 or so rounds at each powder charge with a new load. I know you had 3 different charges but you said you guys fired 200 rds. Your particular gun may have a very loose chamber which would reduce pressure. Also, the particular brand of bullet specified may be different than the one you used(different shapes/lengths than specd). Also, different OAL will affect pressures dramatically so if you didn't follow the recipe exactly, it may be part of the reason for less than acceptable results. Also, the misfires makes me curious. What do you believe was causing them? If you had high primers, that is an easy potential problem. Did your misfires fire with a second strike? Also, what type gun were you shooting? If it has been highly modified, it may be more picky what you shoot in it than most stock guns.

Lots of things can affect reloaded ammo. Reloading is an experience driven exercise. The more you reload, the more you know, the better your reloads can be -- up to a point, anyway.

MLM