2013 Memphis Charity Challenge

[hopalong]

What, not gonna be there and shoot it Chris ?

[ChrisC]

I'll probably sit this one out. I have confidence that you are one of the only people that can make a match neutral for both guns. But I am one that will not make the switch to an 8 shot revo. If uspsa chooses to switch I will no longer participate in revolver division.

[pskys2]

I'll probably sit this one out. I have confidence that you are one of the only people that can make a match neutral for both guns. But I am one that will not make the switch to an 8 shot revo. If uspsa chooses to switch I will no longer participate in revolver division.

Chris what better way to test the theories than Hop's match?

If you're there you can better make the decision on this issue. Without the actual experience it will always be more of a question.

If I can't make it, it will be due to personal issues.

[Carmoney]

Chris, when I started the thread on allowing 8-minor in Revolver Division, you were one of the first to respond. You seemed pretty positive about the idea:

I;m with 343.. I very seldom shoot a bottom feeder so it wouldn't effect how often i shoot revolver. i would think that allowing 8 shots should draw some of the die hard icore guys that don't own a 6 shooter.

I'm not sure what has happened since then, but I would encourage you to keep an open mind on the subject. It's hard to imagine anybody would actually choose not to shoot Sam's MCC match simply because he is interested in collecting information on the 8-minor concept.

[ChrisC]

I still think that allowing 8 shooters would draw more people. Mainly the guys that shoot limited in icore. I'll still miss the Memphis match being what it was even if it attracts a record number of shooters.

[No.343]

I think I understand how Chris feels. I will attend the MCC if I don't blow up another gun, but I fully expect an eight shot to win. I don't think that we need to gather any data about the six versus eight issue. ICORE has already done that for us. ICORE limited shooters win with eight shots.

[EEH]

I hope to be there 6 shot in hand,long long drive from SC.

hey HOP how bout meet me half way..

[Carmoney]

I don't think that we need to gather any data about the six versus eight issue. ICORE has already done that for us. ICORE limited shooters win with eight shots.

Wow.....ICORE is a totally different game, with a totally different scoring system with no differential between major and minor! We really have no idea where 8-minor fits into USPSA Revo, except the flawed data from my Iowa 3DR match, some of Bubber's informal testing, and the special matches at Rio Salado this year. Everybody has an opinion on the subject, but mostly it's just been a bunch of talking so far.

What better way to test the impact of the 8-minor option on Revolver Division than a charity match that is attended by revolver shooters at all skill levels? I think Sam should be commended on his willingness to use the MCC as a test-bed for the concept, and I see absolutely no down-side to it at all.

[No.343]

I think Sam should be commended on his willingness to use the MCC as a test-bed for the concept, and I see absolutely no down-side to it at all.

I agree that Sam should be commended for the MCC as well. My conclusion may be premature, but the revolver shooter that puts them in the middle the fastest wins. That is true for both ICORE and USPSA. I shot the first three MCC matches and two area matches with a revolver. I've shot a few local ICORE matches and one IRC. I shot the IRC with a 625. The IRC, as you know, is six round neutral, but I think I could have skipped two reloads on stages with paper targets. We don't need to discuss again the advantage of an eight shot over a six shot on steel stages. I realize that doesn't add up to a lot of experience, but it seems straight forward to me.

I hope and plan to be at the MCC after skipping last year. I'm getting my 627 ready to race, but I don't know which one I will use yet. I have mixed feelings about the eight shot revolver in the revolver division. Don't get me wrong. I feel that we should try it. We HAVE to change something, but I think that we are dumbing down the challenge that brought me to this division in the first place.

[Dragon11]

I still think that allowing 8 shooters would draw more people. Mainly the guys that shoot limited in icore. I'll still miss the Memphis match being what it was even if it attracts a record number of shooters.

Chris, I hope you still come shoot the MCC match. I have never met you and if I'm offbase by saying this I'm sorry. I have my opinion as does everyone else about the 8 shot minor vs. 6 shot major. But I think it would be depressing to see you or any other valued revo guy not make it to this match. The debate on the revolver may end with the MCC match or it may continue. Am I curious to see the end results, yes I am, and I think a lot of people are. But thats not my reason for going. I want to experience the enjoyment of shooting my revolver, with a bunch of die hard revo guys. If your not going because of another reason, or if I'm wrong for even bringing this up, again, I apoligize. But if its because of the revo debate, to hell with that. Load up some rounds and just shoot some lead. I will be there with my 625 and my moonclips. I hope to see you there!

Edited April 2, 2013 by Dragon11

[moverfive]

For those that think an 8-shot revolver shooting minor has a distinct disadvantage, you are very mistaken based on this real example: NTPS started the production versus single matches years ago. So just like Sam's suggestion here - that match was essentially 8- shot major versus 10-shot minor. We had a lot of equal talent on both sides and guess what - 8-shot major dominated. And to be honest, I was very surprised.

Does that necessarily mean the results from that match will completely translate to this one? No. But at the same time to think an 8-shot revolver has a big disadvantage is an equally wrong assumption.

And yes stage design could play into this discussion.......but this is a revolver match. Don't you think Sam will design stages that would make for a legitimate competition?

[ChrisC]

edited

Edited April 4, 2013 by ChrisC

[Carmoney]

Don't get me wrong. I feel that we should try it. We HAVE to change something, but I think that we are dumbing down the challenge that brought me to this division in the first place.

Javier, I understand what you're saying. I just wish there were more people who wanted to play the game by the current division rules, and then there would be no need to mess with it. But unless this year proves to be different (and it might, given the major change in our National Championship), we need to mix it up somehow and hope it attracts more participation.

[Carmoney]

The level 2 match finish goes on my classification and it was revolver only, meaning I get to test my skills against 60+ people with the same 6 shot handicap. By adding the 8 shots and dropping it to a level one there is no incentive to attend, unless your shooting for fun but I don't consider 1k miles round trip, two nights in a motel and a $100 entry fee (not including ammo cost) to not be competitive much in the way of fun.

Chris, even if the MCC has no impact on your classification, it's still one of the best opportunities to shoot your 625 against a bunch of other guys with 625s--regardless of the 8-shot experiment. Who care about classes--we're all shooting heads-up in Revo Division! Anyway, I look forward to seeing you in Barry in a couple months.

[moverfive]

Chris, your previous comment about Sam is why I said stage design could play into this discussion. And I agree with you 100% about other matches/stage designers and the impact to the competiveness of 6 versus 8 rounds.

And so the overall point I was hoping to convey - for a match properly designed for revolver (which the MCC typically has been to my limited knowledge of revolver stage designs), I think the format Sam is recommending could make for some good challenges. i say that because of my previous experience with 8-round major versus 10-round minor, those couple of extra rounds were not an advantage.

Now everyone that knows me knows - I AM NOT A REVOLVER SHOOTER! In the words of Chris Farley, "let me tell you why I SUCK!" But I work this match (and do my comedyfest of a shooting attempt) because I want to ensure all legitimate divisions remain in this sport.

To have a revolver-only match (especially one that supports an organization appreciative of our efforts/donations) helps ensure revolver remains a legitimate division. While I would argue that the MCC should have been selected as the actual revolver nationals, I can also argue that there would not be a revolver nationals if not for Sam and the MCC. S o this match has been very beneficial for revolver division in so many ways.

I would appeal to anyone questioning this match (attendance or format) to keep all of those factors under consideration. And if anything is taken from this match that may impact the division across the board, we would have much harder facts to support any discussions that could arise.

[ChrisC]

It's been a fun match the last three years, I don't see why this year would be any different. if you haven't attended one I recommend this match.

[cheryl]

Sam's match was my 1st big revolver match 3 years ago. The stages are always well thought out and everybody has a good time and plays on the same field with the same rules with the same toys (unless you are one of those folks who shoots a semi-auto). I'm on the fence this year if I'm going or not. If Sam splits 6 vs 8 scoring, I probably will. If he lumps everybody together, I probably won't. Too much money and time invested just to shoot for the fun of it. I'm sure I can find a 3-gun match somewhere - oh wait, there is one already planned in Missouri.

[Dragon11]

I'll be the first to say I don't agree with bringing in 8 shot minor revolvers. I've agreed to disagree just like a lot of people on the topic. If the 8 shots and the 6 shots would end up shooting together it could either proove or disproove the predicted theories. As far as being competitive, I like both competition and being competitive. All issues aside, regardless of what happens, I'm still going to shoot Sams match.

At some point in time the revolver issue is going to reach a middle ground. Down the road I would hate to miss shooting a good match with a lot of good people and friends because of THAT issue, if skipping the match because of THAT issue is the only reason. I'm going to shoot the match and not worry about the debate, no matter what. Heck, If I end up shooting with an 8 shot gun slinger I'll enjoy it and by him a Guinness later. Elvis has left the building.

[Carmoney]

Too much money and time invested just to shoot for the fun of it.

Exactly what were you hoping to shoot for, Cheryl, if not for the fun of it?

[cheryl]

Too much money and time invested just to shoot for the fun of it.

Exactly what were you hoping to shoot for, Cheryl, if not for the fun of it?

Maybe I should have said "just" for the fun of it. I enjoy competing. I guess you are implying that I'm not going to win and you are correct, but I like the competition part. I can barely keep my head above the water up against the 6 shooters; I would surely drown against the 8-shooters. As Jimmy Buffett says, "Breathe in, Breathe out, move on".

[hopalong]

Wow !!!!!

I guessed the new format would be a little controversial, but for some to say they aren't coming because it MIGHT show that 8 shot minor would be the all consuming DEMON !!!!!

I personnally don't like the idea of expanding the division(I still think any revolver over 6 shots is a Bastard ), but I also see it not growing after a small growth spurt from 2008-2011.

I have heard rumblings of Limited 10 and Revolver Divisions getting the AX ever since I started shooting USPSA in 2001. Here is my opinion on that (see tag line on Opinions) Limited 10 will always be a part of USPSA because of current laws in some states (HI, NY ect) Revolver on the other hand can be removed should the BOD decide to. Our current BOD is likely the best supporter of the Division that we've had since I've been shooting the division, and they along with our new President are looking for ways to keep the division as close to it's traditions yet expand it to help it grow better than it's anemic pace it is at now.

I don't know who said that the matches will be won by the guy who shoots center fastest earlier in the posts, but that is it in a nutshell UNTIL you put the difference in scoring on paper targets. Single stack has PROVEN that as no MINOR gun has won since the change.

After a few years of shooting revolver (about the time Carmoney came back into the game) there were and still are the same group of guys that always traveled and shot together and at that time any one of the 8ish would win if Jerry wasn't there. Nills came and went, Matt came, and Josh came. David O shoots when he can but other than them it is still the same guys up at the top of the list with a few now that have been working thier asses off. My prediction if the division wen't to allowing 8 shot minor ?

The same people will be in the same place with just a little movement up and down the board.

I will still be shooting my 6 shot gun no matter what (I also shoot them in ICORE and have won a match or two vs the 8s) and I challenge all and anyone to show up at the MCC and try to match my 6 shooter with theirs, or if they want to try 6+ bring it on !!!!!

I'm still working out of town and will be doing so through June, so work on the 2013 MCC is rather slow and behind where I want it to be, but November 1 we will be hammer down @ 9ish AM if all goes well. Please come help me prove that 8 shots minor are no advantage to the division as I;ll be doing all I can to whip the tails of all the whimpy soft shooting minor guns !!!!!

By the way the 2012 MCC will be donating another $3000 to LeBohneur Childrens Hospital for a running total of $16,000 dontated to Childrens Hospitals since it started !!!!! (come help us get them more)

Hopalong

[ChrisC]

edited

Edited April 4, 2013 by ChrisC

[Carmoney]

I guess you are implying that I'm not going to win and you are correct, but I like the competition part.

I wasn't implying anything, I was just trying to figure out what the heck you were talking about, Cheryl. None of us who regularly attend the MCC are being paid to shoot. This is not a match with a deep prize table--it's designed to be a charity match and Sam has done a very nice job with that mission. If you care about how you perform (as most of us do), the results are going to be posted afterward, right? I'm certain that at the very least, Sam will make sure the results indicate which platform people are using--otherwise there will be no data to compare and that's the whole idea of allowing the 8-minor option this time around.

I'm not real happy about people using Sam's match as an opportunity to try to make their political points in a passive/aggressive manner on the division rules thing. Go over to my thread on that subject if you have something negative to say.

[cheryl]

I'm not real happy about people using Sam's match as an opportunity to try to make their political points in a passive/aggressive manner on the division rules thing. Go over to my thread on that subject if you have something negative to say.

I meant no disrespect for Sam or his match. I was following along the same line of comments that were already made. You are correct; this is not the correct subject for 6v8.

[Carmoney]

Thank you, Cheryl. I realize that nobody intended to detract from the MCC, and that the rules conversation just happens to be a really hot topic right now.

Anyway, now we can all get back to Sam's non-stop stream of promotional MCC posts!