Sharyn Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 I hope this is in the correct forum. I did read the guidelines and it seemed to fit... ?!?! A friend and I were discussing split times, etc. so I video taped my practice to show some clips. Well, I happened to shoot my fastest Bill Drill to date, but I also noticed something weird that hopefully someone here can provide insight to. I was shooting 2-2-2 to try and even my split vs. transitions times out. Somehow I manage to shoot 2-2-2 faster than a Bill Drill...??? How in the heck... ??? No laughing. I'm only a C class shooter. My Bill Drill time was 2.05 and my 2-2-2 was 2.00. It's not uncommon for me to get sub-1 draws and some sub-.20 splits/transitions on the 2-2-2, but I can't seem to shoot a Bill Drill at that speed. WHY?!?! I'm guessing tension as you can see more tension in my shoulders in the Bill Drill video. Do I have a mental block against the Bill Drill??? Your (constructive) comments are appreciated. Here's the videos: Bill Drill 2-2-2 Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 Anderson Shooting Here's a video of the same thing by Steve Anderson. The video is the 2nd from the bottom. He also gives his insight to why, and I tend to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 My constructive comments??? My comment is..... "I'm glad I'm not shooting Open Division at Area 1 as a C class shooter!" Sheesh! It could be that during a bill drill you're a bit "tighter" than you are during a 2-2-2 drill. When watching shooters do bill drills...it seems that trigger freeze is the thing that gets them....they're tighter than a wound spring! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 If we are truly watching the gun (or sights or dot) return, it could indeed be faster to shoot three targets. I know that my transitions are better than my splits, so for me it's very natural. It's just faster to move the gun than to let it return... SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 Would it not depend on how far apart the targets are as well? It seems a table of bowling pins or a plate rack are ideal for some blistering transition speeds ... targets that 15 yards apart may be less so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 you may be rated c class but those are M-GM performances. Sandbagger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharyn Posted September 11, 2004 Author Share Posted September 11, 2004 you may be rated c class but those are M-GM performances. Sandbagger Hey... be nice! No name calling. Also, that's practice performance... if only I could translate it to match performance! Many other areas are lacking in my shooting. The only reason I started shooting the Bill Drill was because in Matt Burkett's book, he sets a goal of 2.00 or less. That's a freakin' high standard you're setting for us newbies, Matt! Sheesh!!! Thanks for the responses, y'all. This topic is still buzzing in my mind. Hopefully you'd like to continue rationalizing it with me. OK, Steve A., I think I see what you are saying, but according to your explanation, theoretically you would be able to put one shot on 6 targets, side by side, faster than a Bill Drill? This also takes into consideration rhino's point of view except the opposite. Moving the targets closer together and essentially stacking them on top of eachother (the Bill Drill...?) I haven't tried 6 single shots in a row and maybe I will just to see the outcome. My transition times are never faster than my split times. I work very hard to get them as close as possible and as consistant as possible and building a nice cadence. It's tough! Maybe we are just more accustomed to putting 2 shots on one target than 6 shots on one? How come I experience trigger freeze more frequently with a Bill Drill and rarely with 2-2-2 although I'm shooting it faster? (maybe that's another issue altogether?) If we can 'move the gun' faster than 'letting it return', wouldn't that be a mental glitch and not a physical one? Because 'physically' you're 'moving the gun' less on a Bill Drill... you're eliminating one factor altogether. Unless of course your transitions are much faster than your splits, as you say... damn, you're an anomaly Steve A.... or...maybe I am??? Did y'all just see that rationalization circle? ROFL!!! I'm thinking out e-loud. Maybe I'm not understanding your theory completely... hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 I was a doubting Thomas when Steve first proposed the notion of a transition being as fast as a spilt, but I think he is on to something. I am not to the point where my transitions are as fast as my splits. However, I just got back from the range where I did some Bill Drills and one 2-2-2 drill. I was demonstrating for a friend. The targets were a little over a yard apart edge to edge. My Bill Drills were running 1.85-1.90 and my 2-2-2 was 2.05. I didn't check the timer so I don't know what the draw time looked like. I do know I get a lot of .13-.14 splits on my Bill Drills and I rarely get a .13 transition. FWIW, your times are not what would be expected of a C class shooter, sandbagger. Oh, I forgot, no name calling. As for trigger freeze, I fought that problem for well over a year. In my case, the trigger freeze was due to lack of neutrality in the grip and failure to isolate the action of the trigger finger. I seldom experience trigger freeze anymore, but if I do let the problem surface, it's on a Bill Drill or a timing drill. When I try to speed up I induce tension in my hands, which in turn manifests itself as an increase in grip pressure with my strong hand while I am shooting. It's hard to increase pressure with three fingers while letting the trigger return with the fourth. Trigger freeze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 No laughing. I'm only a C class shooter. My Bill Drill time was 2.05 and my 2-2-2 was 2.00. It's not uncommon for me to get sub-1 draws and some sub-.20 splits/transitions on the 2-2-2, but I can't seem to shoot a Bill Drill at that speed. That's nowhere near "C class" performance, even if it's "just practice!" Just your draw speed alone is beyond most C class shooters. I still laugh when I see someone who prefaces stellar results with some self-deprecation like, "No laughing." GET OVER IT! You're GOOD! You may not be as good as you want to be (yet), but you're obviously good. Methinks Sniper is going to be the one laughing when she gets her A card and then her M card! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Sniper, You're getting deeper than I ususally go, I just know that i can make the gun go to the next target more aggressively than I can allow it to return. I spend a TON of time on transitions and consider them to be by greatest strength. (lately I've been bumping into my brass on L-R transitions ) What does it mean? Who knows...I just can't wait to get to the Nationals!!! SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Steve, You mean you haven't left yet? Either get to driving, or go to bed --- that way it'll be time to go sooner..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 He should be at my house in about 6.5 hours...then we are on the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Betcha plan on taking a couple of cans of whoop ass with you. Good luck gentlemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Man, GM's sure take their time in getting going..... I was passing your house Friday night...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Betcha plan on taking a couple of cans of whoop ass with you. Good luck gentlemen. Not in my case. I just want to see the sights for evey shot and not take four or five shots at every moving target..... Small goals. But you were probably talking about those other two.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Now that I've drifted this thread far enough, back to the original topic: If you want to see what happens with Bill Drills set up six targets in a row. Load enough mags and shoot all six bill drills with a timer. See what happens. Keep doing this, and sooner or later, you'll start noticing things. I shot my best Bill Drill after shooting five crappy ones --- hits all over the place and slow --- when I decided I wasn't going to accomplish anything that day anyway and it was time to go home. For some reason that relaxed me enough to where I ripped off a 2.25 BD with a 1.21 draw that was all A's ---- though the one in the upper scoring zone should have been a miss.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 though the one in the upper scoring zone should have been a miss... At targets that are ~5-6 yards, I tend to hear: "Alpha, Alpha the hard way." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBurkett Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 It's just faster to move the gun than to let it return... Umm, no sorry it isn't. The gun is doing the same thing on both activities but you are adding motion. Added motion equals what? If your trans are faster than your splits, you are missing something on the timing and maybe just not driving the gun back. I believe this is a mental issue more than anything and it is probably related to the aggressiveness that we approach the drill with. Sniper, the first question that no on seems to have asked (since it is an assumed) is that both drills have the same quality of hits? IE - both drills are with all A zone hits right? If not they don't count. Comments on the video: 1. Nice shoulder movement. 2. Get the gun up earlier - looks almost like a scoop or fishing presentation. 3. Your head moves about 3". 4. Stance looks A LOT better than it used too! Looks like your not getting pushed around by the gun anymore. Next time, don't worry about getting the targets in the scene. Can't see paper targets get hit anyway. Try to get the shooter on camera on the right side - fairly tightly framed. Take care, Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Matt: When Steve first proposed the notion of moving the gun as fast as letting the timing of the gun settle the dot, I wrinkled my nose and thought, "No Way". The whole notion is counter intuitive. Now I am not so sure. I can get splits a lot faster than transitions, but the dot is bouncing all over the place. My open blaster is a shorty and it's kind of abusive. When I shoot, the dot looks fragmented and goes every which way, dips below point of aim, then comes back. The gun tracks like crapola and it really isn't very flat. I am not so sure that a guy with really fast eyes and quick hands couldn't ride the recoil then index to a second target as fast a doing a split with a half way stable sight picture. For now, I am in the no way camp, but I am certainly not ready to close the door on the possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharyn Posted September 21, 2004 Author Share Posted September 21, 2004 IE - both drills are with all A zone hits right? If not they don't count. Yes. I was trying to minimize the video file size. I kept the 2-2-2 video intact more to show the equality of the splits/transitions times and the pattern of the hits. As you can probably hear... the split times are not equal on the Bill Drill. Comments on the video:1. Nice shoulder movement. 2. Get the gun up earlier - looks almost like a scoop or fishing presentation. 3. Your head moves about 3". 4. Stance looks A LOT better than it used too! Looks like your not getting pushed around by the gun anymore. and rhino wonders why I clarify my classification... Matt... I'm shocked that you didn't comment on my follow through... er, lack thereof. 1. Doh! "Tension = bad shooting" 2. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying on this one. We'll have to talk. 3. Improved from 5" last month. 4. Thanks! Been workin' on it. That's a different gun too. We've replaced/repaired all the indoor light fixtures at Rangemasters, sprayed for mosquitoes, fixed the road to Impactzone... can't do much about the rain, sorry. Are you ready to come back to Houston yet? proposed the notion of moving the gun as fast as letting the timing of the gun settle the dot I'm understanding him to say "faster than" not "as fast as". You're going to have to deal with the timing no matter what... adding the transitions in there, even if they're faster, will not reduce the split times... and if it did appear to, I'd think that the shots on multiple targets would hit progressively higher. This is because if you're watching your dot/sight, your splits would be essentially controlled by it's return (and your reaction time). If you're moving the gun faster/transitioning faster your shots would 'walk up' the targets because you can't be waiting for a complete return. Or, you're slowing your splits down more than necessary. This is one of the reasons I felt that it was important to include the timer and target hits on the 2-2-2 video. You can see that my split times (except the first one) are identical to the transition times. Removing the transition times in the Bill Drill should not effect the total time...??? but it does! And inversely so! I'm confusing myself. LOL I'm still not sure I'm understanding Steve Anderson's perspective... or at least not in relation to my shooting in the videos. I'm open to the ideas... I'm just not sure I'm getting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 I can't speak for Steve but I can provide a link. Steve's 2-2-2 Drill Steve talks about a 2-2-2 drill in 1.39 seconds with a .13 transition thrown into the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 People are different. Don't discount what works for one person because it doesn't work for a number of others... this is particularly true of things that require a physical aptitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharyn Posted September 21, 2004 Author Share Posted September 21, 2004 People are different. Don't discount what works for one person because it doesn't work for a number of others... this is particularly true of things that require a physical aptitude. I'm not discounting anyone... ??? I'm trying to understand the concepts discussed in this thread and apply them to my shooting. And, I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I'm trying to express my thoughts and ideas on the subject in order to resolve any descrepancies in our thought processes. I'm not sure I completely understand all the concepts being discussed here. Now, I'm even questioning my current understanding of the words; split, transition, timing, etc. It seems to me that one proposed answer to my question was that it's faster to move the gun than to let it return. I'm interpreting move to = transition time and return = split time. Maybe that's where I'm wrong but if I'm interpreting correctly, my split times are identical to my transition times so I don't understand how that explains why my 2-2-2 is faster than my Bill Drill. I'm new to the game. I indulge in as many ideas and concepts that I can in order to learn. I analyze and rationalize them and try to see how I can apply it to my shooting. I don't mean to come off as argumentative or derogatory, it's just the way I learn. <<scratching head>> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 Umm, no sorry it isn't. The gun is doing the same thing on both activities but you are adding motion. Added motion equals what? If your trans are faster than your splits, you are missing something on the timing and maybe just not driving the gun back. Ditto. Obviously if the targets are within "X" distance (shoulder to shoulder, e.g.) to one another the time difference between splits and transitions are probably negligible (meaning so fractionally small it doesn't matter). However, if the targets are say 7 yards apart, there's no way it's faster to transition than firing six on one target. It has to be mental, 'cause it can't be mechanical. A machine doesn't act that way, and the human body, in this case, is no different. Just my two Lincolns. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 If they are 7 yards apart yes. But by that logic it would also be faster to fire 2 shots on 3 targets 7 yards apart if you were trying to do a bill drill at 100 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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