GrumpyOne Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Ok, so I know that magnets are verboten in Production division, as of a few days ago. My question is, will I get moved to open for having one on my belt, even if I don't use it? See, I shoot Limited every blue moon with my exact same Production rig.... So.....????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 The problem is we're waiting on the rules language -- Right now the only thing we have is a board vote. There's nothing in the rulebook, or in the official published interpretations to guide match staff. Right now I see the rule as unenfoceable, until its published somewhere. Here's what was in the BOD minutes: Production and Single Stack Appendix will have the following added: Each magazine must be contained individually within the magazine pouch. Magazines may not be retained through magnetic means. Effective January 1, 2013 If the rules were written to reflect that exactly, you'd be fine -- but you'd need to be careful not to accidentally slap a mag on the magnet to avoid competing in Open.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 I agree. As written, if you don't use it then you are fine. BUT what about this. Could somebody try the lame argument against you if you have the magnet attached to one of the pouches. I would certainly still call it OK but you never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 5, 2013 Author Share Posted January 5, 2013 Now, as long as it isn't used during the COF, could you still use it at the end of the COF, at ULSC? You drop the mag, stick it to the magnet, rack and show clear.... Bump to open? Or what about at MR? If you can pull a mag from your front pocket at MR, could you not also pull from the magnet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 To me the logical answer for what we currently see written is to not use it at all during the COF. My reasoning is you could have a mag stuck to your magnet during the COF but it would be too much of a challenge for the RO to see if you used it or not. Make sense I hope. But granted if you never take the mag from the pouch it won't do any harm but the writing does not currently seem to support having a mag on a magnet period. Like Nik said, not enough to go on yet so stop fretting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 If it were me, i would make some sort of cap (maybe a piece of plastic with a small piece of steel in it) that would cover the magnet when shooting production. The other option would be to remove the magnet, and re-install it during the blue moon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 D4-12 says (current rulebook): "Restriction on position of holster and other equipment (revolver speedloaders.moon clips are exempt) Yes, see Appendix E3" And E3 is that picture of that cool dude with the stuff behind his hipbones. It mentions nothing about using the equipment or not. Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 5, 2013 Author Share Posted January 5, 2013 NROI ruling: Question: If I use a magazine from my front pocket to make ready, or after the unload and show clear command place the discarded magazine in my front pocket, will these actions move me to Open division? Answer: Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty). I take this to mean that a magnet can be used at MR, or used at ULSC.... Opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 5, 2013 Author Share Posted January 5, 2013 If it were me, i would make some sort of cap (maybe a piece of plastic with a small piece of steel in it) that would cover the magnet when shooting production. The other option would be to remove the magnet, and re-install it during the blue moon. Have you ever messed around with a DAA magnet? I think that it would still stick a magazine through 1/2" of plastic! Those things are bloody strong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 (edited) I agree. As written, if you don't use it then you are fine. I disagree. What is in the BOD minutes say nothing about using the mag. It says the mag must not be retained through magnetic means. (Like Nik said, all of this is theoretical until we have a published rule.) Why tempt fate (or Murphy?) Even if you had the magnet mounted behind your hip bone, it makes no difference. Say you do a reload, your mag bounces off the wall and sticks to your magnet. You are in violation of the rule. Edited January 5, 2013 by sperman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 (edited) If it were me, i would make some sort of cap (maybe a piece of plastic with a small piece of steel in it) that would cover the magnet when shooting production. The other option would be to remove the magnet, and re-install it during the blue moon. Have you ever messed around with a DAA magnet? I think that it would still stick a magazine through 1/2" of plastic! Those things are bloody strong! So make the cap 3/4" thick. You know there is a potential for a problem here. Why stress over something you can easily fix? You've already spent more time in this thread than it would take to remove the magnet. Edited January 5, 2013 by sperman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 5, 2013 Author Share Posted January 5, 2013 If it were me, i would make some sort of cap (maybe a piece of plastic with a small piece of steel in it) that would cover the magnet when shooting production. The other option would be to remove the magnet, and re-install it during the blue moon. Have you ever messed around with a DAA magnet? I think that it would still stick a magazine through 1/2" of plastic! Those things are bloody strong! So make the cap 3/4" thick. You know there is a potential for a problem here. Why stress over something you can easily fix? You've already spent more time in this thread than it would take to remove the magnet. You and I both know that isn't the point.... We'll just have to wait to see how the new rule is worded... I still see no issue pulling a mag from the magnet at MR, nor sticking one to it at ULSC..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Sorry. Sometimes I take things too literally. Based on your opening post, I thought this was a question about your equipment, not a theoretial question. I think anyone shooting production with a mag on their belt is taking a risk. Some risks are unavoidable, this isn't one of them. Read what is in the minutes (Nik has it quoted above.) If a mag is retained by a magnet, between MR and ULSC, you've violated the rule. The ruling you quoted by Amidon deals with equipment locations. This isn't a location issue, this is an illegal equipment issue. I guess we will know more when the board finally publishes a new rulebook. I'm glad I don't have a new 6" sight tracker with a *thumb rest generic* sitting in the safe. (I'm also glad I'm not a MD/RM that might see a 6" sight tracker at a match this weekend.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 NROI ruling: Question: If I use a magazine from my front pocket to make ready, or after the unload and show clear command place the discarded magazine in my front pocket, will these actions move me to Open division? Answer: Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty). I take this to mean that a magnet can be used at MR, or used at ULSC.... Opinions? I wouldn't want to -- might be legal, but I'd prefer to avoid the conflict. I also don't pull mags out of apparel pockets during a COF, I have an extra pouch on my belt for that..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 I agree. As written, if you don't use it then you are fine. I disagree. What is in the BOD minutes say nothing about using the mag. It says the mag must not be retained through magnetic means. (Like Nik said, all of this is theoretical until we have a published rule.) Why tempt fate (or Murphy?) Even if you had the magnet mounted behind your hip bone, it makes no difference. Say you do a reload, your mag bounces off the wall and sticks to your magnet. You are in violation of the rule. Again, the prudent move would be not to have the magnet on the belt in the first place -- that eliminates any possibility of being moved to Open for that particular violation. Then again, this is all speculation -- until we see an actual rule.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGMorden Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Do you want to go through the hassle of going the the arbitration process at a major match? Just because it might be legal by the strict wording of the law, and just because you might come out OK in the end, doesn't mean its worth the hassle unless it gives you a clear advantage. A magnet that you can't use on the clock gives no such advantage that would justify the potential headache it might cause. I'd leave it off, or invest in another belt setup to use when you shoot limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I say use it until there is a specific rule stating that you can't have it on the belt. Eric Grauffel looks pretty cool slapping the mag on his belt at unload and show clear. And you guys know the Grumpyone; he's all about cool. Believe me, I've shot with the guy. Freaking trouble maker..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 10, 2013 Author Share Posted January 10, 2013 I say use it until there is a specific rule stating that you can't have it on the belt. Eric Grauffel looks pretty cool slapping the mag on his belt at unload and show clear. And you guys know the Grumpyone; he's all about cool. Believe me, I've shot with the guy. Freaking trouble maker..... Flattery will get you nowhere with me, Chris! See you on Saturday at SEPSA...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I say use it until there is a specific rule stating that you can't have it on the belt. Eric Grauffel looks pretty cool slapping the mag on his belt at unload and show clear. And you guys know the Grumpyone; he's all about cool. Believe me, I've shot with the guy. Freaking trouble maker..... Which technically might earn him a move to open..... ....as the COF isn't over until "Range is Clear." Of course until we actually get a written rule, it's a moot point.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I say use it until there is a specific rule stating that you can't have it on the belt. Eric Grauffel looks pretty cool slapping the mag on his belt at unload and show clear. And you guys know the Grumpyone; he's all about cool. Believe me, I've shot with the guy. Freaking trouble maker..... Which technically might earn him a move to open..... ....as the COF isn't over until "Range is Clear." Of course until we actually get a written rule, it's a moot point.... Good point, but don't tell the Grumpyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 10, 2013 Author Share Posted January 10, 2013 Hey, I know the risks associated with it, and I'm willing to brave those risks.... Until we have a clear and concise written rule...but until that rule is wrote and published, I will use the magnet. So there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Hey, I know the risks associated with it, and I'm willing to brave those risks.... Until we have a clear and concise written rule...but until that rule is wrote and published, I will use the magnet. So there. There's no risk until we have a rule..... Use the magnet to your heart's content.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 According to Chuck's post in this other thread, we have a rule, and the magnets were illegal on 1/1/2013. Since the change for SS and Production was a change to the appendix, I assume the approptiate penalty would be a bump to open. Production and Single Stack Appendix will have the following added: Each magazine must be contained individually within the magazine pouch. Magazines may not be retained through magnetic means. Effective January 1, 2013 The rule was voted on on 2011 to go into effect in January. The rule was posted in the BOD meeting minutes and in Front Sight. It is in effect now. I don't really know where the questions about this are coming from. We don't publish a new rule book every time a rule is changed. If someone needs verification point them to the Dec, 2011 BOD minutes that show the revised Appendices for Lim and Lim 10. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 2, 2013 Author Share Posted February 2, 2013 According to Chuck's post in this other therad, we have a rule, and the magnets were illegal on 1/1/2013. Since the change for SS and Production was a change to the appendix, I assume the approptiate penalty would be a bump to open. Production and Single Stack Appendix will have the following added: Each magazine must be contained individually within the magazine pouch. Magazines may not be retained through magnetic means. Effective January 1, 2013 The rule was voted on on 2011 to go into effect in January. The rule was posted in the BOD meeting minutes and in Front Sight. It is in effect now. I don't really know where the questions about this are coming from. We don't publish a new rule book every time a rule is changed. If someone needs verification point them to the Dec, 2011 BOD minutes that show the revised Appendices for Lim and Lim 10. ... Still doesn't answer the question of whether or not you can use them at MR or ULSC..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 IMO, the two rulings (one of which you quoted above) make it legal to use at MR & ULSC. But you know when my opinion counts? When I'm the CRO on that stage, and even then the RM may disagree with me. All it takes is one RO/CRO who has a different opinion on the rule, and at the very least you are having a long drawn out discussion on the rules when you should be focused on the shooting. Why risk it? We all hate grey areas in the rules. But when they exist, why would you flirt with them (especially when there is zero advantage to be had?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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