Mark Perez Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 Again, FWIW, I was the MD for the Indiana State match. I had several emails and calls from folks who wanted to know if a concealment garment would be needed. It seems they never wear one at their IDPA club. BillD, Concealment is optional at our matches during the summer. Yesterday , I ran one of our monthly matches and gave a different concealment option , don't wear it and receive +10 to overall score . 20 of 21 folks chose to wear concealment (half of those wear it anyway) and the one who didn't was a newbie who could've cared less .. They only had to wear it for the shooting portions , even I took mine off for SO duties. It was pretty warm out there. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 as long as it doesn't get silly or too IPSC like. Would you elaborate on what you consider "silly" and "IPSC like?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 Silly or IPSC like. Uh oh, I can see it coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 Yesterday , I ran one of our monthly matches and gave a different concealment option , don't wear it and receive +10 to overall score . 20 of 21 folks chose to wear concealment (half of those wear it anyway) and the one who didn't was a newbie who could've cared less .. Some "option." So obviously you wanted people to wear a concealment garment, right? Otherwise a plus-10 second penalty for a club match (I'm assuming around six stages) is WAY out of line with what the real time difference is between a match full of concealed versus unconcealed draws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 Yesterday , I ran one of our monthly matches and gave a different concealment option , don't wear it and receive +10 to overall score . 20 of 21 folks chose to wear concealment (half of those wear it anyway) and the one who didn't was a newbie who could've cared less .. Some "option." So obviously you wanted people to wear a concealment garment, right? Otherwise a plus-10 second penalty for a club match (I'm assuming around six stages) is WAY out of line with what the real time difference is between a match full of concealed versus unconcealed draws. It was 5 stages. How do you know what the differences are over here? And why would you care? I don't think I've ever seen you at one of our matches Duane. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 Well, I didn't know I had to shoot a match "over here" - wherever that might be - to have an opinion on the topic. And there's no way on God's green earth, even "over here," that having to do a concealed vs. unconcealed draw adds two seconds per draw to the better shooters' times. I care because some people seem to have this "more tactical than thou" attitude that IDPA matches must be shot from concealment, and look askance at those of us who prefer not to broil ourselves inside a jacket or vest during the dog days of summer. I've had a guy look at me after a match and say, "You may have beaten me....but **I** did my draws from concealment." My reply was, "Well yeah, but considering I beat you by about 30 seconds, I kind of doubt that was the only reason." What such folks don't realize is that, among the better shooters, concealed vs. unconcealed is not going to make any difference in who wins the match. We may prefer not to wear a vest during wam weather, but the reason we're not doing concealed draws isn't because we can't. If anything, forcing people to shoot concealed is going to widen the gap between the better shooters and the newbies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 Well over here, we shoot sans vest when the heat becomes intolerable. I too have been shamed by the tactically correct for shedding my cover garment in favor of short sleeves and sunscreen. I find the whole Tactical Teddy syndrome laughable. Tactical Teddy shows up at the range. He then exchanges his carry gun for his gamer ESP blaster and his IWB leather holster is replaced by Kydex. He dons his custom gamer vest, complete with sewn in lining to stiffen the sides, a bellow pocket the size of a pup tent to stow the mag during the tactical reload, and weighted pockets to swing the vest out of the way. Then he gets on my case...? Does that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 About five years ago, for an article, I conducted some tests to ascertain the time difference between my concealed and unconcealed draw. I began every draw with hands at sides, using my daily carry stuff which at the time was a Wilson .45 and IWB holster. Did five unconcealed draws, averaged the times. Did five draws from under a jacket, averaged the times. Then I compared the two numbers. On that day, with that equipment, at that skill level, the average difference that concealed vs. unconcealed made to me was .17 second. So let's apply that to the topic under discussion. Five stage match, .17 slower per draw. .17 times 5 equals .85 second. So, I have the "option" of shooting unconcealed, but I have to eat a 10 second penalty. Hmmmm, let me think about this for a pico-second.... Carry the one.... Nope, I'm going to shoot concealed. (BTW, I should mention that when I started my draws grasping the front of the jacket with my shooting hand, as John Farnam taught me I should do at the first sign of trouble, the difference between concealed and unconcealed dropped to .05 second. I put this forth only as potentially interesting information since very few matches willl allow you to start grasping the jacket - no matter how real-world useful a technique that might be.) To say to shooters, "You can shoot the match concealed but you have to accept a 10 second penalty," by making the penalty so much more severe than the actual difference between the two techniques, is in effect saying, "We're giving you no option while saying we are." Please understand, I'm not saying that was the intention, but it was certainly the effect. Or, as has been said, "20 of 21 folks chose to wear concealment (half of those wear it anyway) and the one who didn't was a newbie who could've cared less .." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 DT, double post but I'm guessing the first was typed from concealment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 It's been ususually hot for the past few weeks out here. Many of the clubs I've shot at recently waived the concealment. I wore mine anyway, for the reason that I'm getting ready for nats in hot-as-bejezus Arkansas which WILL require concealment so I might as well get used to it. I don't have a beef with a club that does not require it, but I do think it's silly for them to waive it when it's warm You're wearing it for maybe the sum of 2-1/2 minutes for most the matches around here. You're not going to pass out. I think clubs that do not mandate concealment end up sticking it to their shooters. I've seen many such shooters go to big matches and not understand the concept, and their lack of knowledge/practice vis a vis concealment ends up costing them. I guess you can say the shooter can be a big boy and shoot it with concealment but I think that the concept of concealment is also a big part of IDPA's philosophy and should be followed. Not to be different than IPSC, but just to be IDPA. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 Well, I didn't know I had to shoot a match "over here" - wherever that might be - to have an opinion on the topic. And there's no way on God's green earth, even "over here," that having to do a concealed vs. unconcealed draw adds two seconds per draw to the better shooters' times.I care because some people seem to have this "more tactical than thou" attitude that IDPA matches must be shot from concealment, and look askance at those of us who prefer not to broil ourselves inside a jacket or vest during the dog days of summer. I've had a guy look at me after a match and say, "You may have beaten me....but **I** did my draws from concealment." My reply was, "Well yeah, but considering I beat you by about 30 seconds, I kind of doubt that was the only reason." What such folks don't realize is that, among the better shooters, concealed vs. unconcealed is not going to make any difference in who wins the match. We may prefer not to wear a vest during wam weather, but the reason we're not doing concealed draws isn't because we can't. If anything, forcing people to shoot concealed is going to widen the gap between the better shooters and the newbies. Sorry we have disappointed the Almighty Wise One in how we operate our little match. [sarcasm on] I'll try to do better next time ok ? [/sarcasm off] Until that day, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 It's been ususually hot for the past few weeks out here. Many of the clubs I've shot at recently waived the concealment. I wore mine anyway, for the reason that I'm getting ready for nats in hot-as-bejezus Arkansas which WILL require concealment so I might as well get used to it.I don't have a beef with a club that does not require it, but I do think it's silly for them to waive it when it's warm You're wearing it for maybe the sum of 2-1/2 minutes for most the matches around here. You're not going to pass out. I think clubs that do not mandate concealment end up sticking it to their shooters. I've seen many such shooters go to big matches and not understand the concept, and their lack of knowledge/practice vis a vis concealment ends up costing them. I guess you can say the shooter can be a big boy and shoot it with concealment but I think that the concept of concealment is also a big part of IDPA's philosophy and should be followed. Not to be different than IPSC, but just to be IDPA. Ted Exactly. Suck it up for the 3-4 minutes when you would actually wear the concealment. Cowboy up and put your vest on for 30 seconds at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 Sorry we have disappointed the Almighty Wise One in how we operate our little match.[sarcasm on] I'll try to do better next time ok ? [/sarcasm off] Until that day, Mark Nah, that's okay. No problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 Q. What is a lightsaber????????? A. The lightsaber: "this is the weapon of choice of a Jedi, an elegant armament of a more civilized time. In comparison, blasters and rifles are crude, inaccurate and loud affairs..." For a deeper insight into a moder Jedi arsenal, look here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Practical Use Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 I finally get it - it is the replacement for a revolver!!!! I assume it is digital??????? Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEPAKevin Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 Another option for warm weather is to wear an ugly oversized Hawaian shirt and switch draw to a hack-snatch. Popping shirt buttons is always a crowd pleaser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 I move the thread be locked. Good natured ribbing is one thing, but some of you guys are just mean spirited. Take it to GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 Ron Like the guy from friends said:..."...it's a MOO point, you know, a cow's opinion..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 Everybody: Please remember to play nicely with each other. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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