Forgetful Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Preface : I'm sorry about the length of this, I want to be thorough. I've put ~2000 total rounds through it. Stock 5in 40 date stamp of 2011. Major PF with heave recoil master. When I first got it I'd have the classic stuck going up feed ramp FTF every 50 or 100. A tap on the back of the slide got it into battery. I beveled the stock extractor, opened the mag feed lips to 0.395 at the front and it fixed this problem. Then it started FTE where the extractor would slip off the case and leave it partly in the chamber. I retensioned the extractor and fixed this... But I decided to put a AFTEC in since everyone here reccomed one. Since I installed the AFTEC I've started reloading and use hard cast lead. Now the sporadic problem starts. Problem 1: Failure to lock up. I've had this 3 times in the last 600 rounds (since I installed the aftec, lead bullets) . What happens is it seems the round isn't going into the chamber by about 1/16 of an inch. This causes the slide to be unlocked about 1/4 to 1/2 of a inch as seen in picture 1&2. The gun is fairly locked up and cannot be forced closed (or at least after a good shove it doesnt), it also takes a good pull to eject the round. Once ejected I examanined the round and put put it in the mag again, chambers fine second time... Only thing odd about the round is there's normally a spot where the bullet has impacted the feedramp/upper feedramp and gouged the lead a little. Now I will say that I've dropped the lead reloads into the barrel and every single one doesn't drop in and out like a FMJ. It seems in the last 1/16 of a inch the lead bullet makes contact with the rifling. I have to gently push it in the rest of the way then pull it out same too , I marked a bullet and you can see this is happening. I've measured the bullets and they're 0.402 though. Supposed to be 0.401... OAL is set at 1.16 (I shortened it from 1.18 to see if maybe the bullet was engaging rifling too soon) I just figure if the oversized bullets were the cause then it'd happen more/all the time. Brass doesn't seem to be "glocked" as it goes in the second time no issue. Picture 1 is about how far it is out of battery, pic 2 is fully locked up- Problem 2: Had this once occur today. FTfeed, last round in the mag (newish grams guts). Bullet is close to vertical. Base of brass is under the breach face still in magish. Is this just a problem of my feed lips being open to much? Or maybe a freak occurrence. Or OAL too short? Pictures below. Random rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClutchUSMC Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 (edited) I shot a lot of lead in my .40 when I was shooting limited. I found that the lee factory crimp die solved similar problems for me. It sizes the case one final time after the bullet is seated to remove any bulge you may have caused. Have you pulled any of the offending bullets to see if they are out of spec? Also, I went from cast lead, to jacked, and now am shooting "black" or moly coated bullets. I find that these give me all the advantages of jacked bullets with the cost of lead. I think they keep my dies much cleaner than the lead did too, are you cleaning your dies? That could be the source of your error. Are you using a chamber checker? Or just the barrel? I find that my chamber checker is actually a little tighter than my chamber so I know for certain the rounds will function if they go through the checker. Also, mine drop free about 99% of the time just like the do with the jacked bullets since I went to the FCD and Black bullets. Edited December 24, 2012 by ClutchUSMC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4045 Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 When one of these comes in I throw away the recoil master.I shoot lead from time to time. If you mark the cases and drop them in barrel there will be spots that rub. I use a magic marker. I also had to have chamber polished to get the bullets to go in easily. I also fit all my followers to my mags. Meaning they do not drag in tube at all. I load to1.180 oal. You may have to have chamber reamed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4045 Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Lee undersized sizer may help also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 I think I've had the same problem. The way you describe the slide not fully going into battery and requiring some force to extract the bullet sounds like the same problem I had with a new Kart barrel in one of my 2011's with a moly-coated bullet of a similar profile. It turned out my barrel needed to have the forcing cone lengthened very slightly. I think my gunsmith said he barely did one full turn and then the bullets would drop in all the way. Its been feeding great ever since. I think it is the shoulder of your bullet that is making contact. The chamber is probably fine. When you forcibly extract a round, is there a mark on the bullet's shoulder where it is hitting the forcing cone? I normally load to 1.180" OAL, and I could run the same bullet only when I loaded to 1.130". If I used a different bullet that had a shorter shoulder with a more round nose shape they loaded fine even at 1.180". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titandriver Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Yep, throat the barrel to accept a round at a 1.250 OAL and you'll have no problems with any loads under that; moly'd or cast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forgetful Posted December 25, 2012 Author Share Posted December 25, 2012 Okay looks like I might be getting it throated out. Today it happened again, I tried to force it into battery just for kicks and it took a bit more force to get the round back out. Look at this pic of the round. You can clearly see where the lead got stuck on the "throat". I just don't understand why it only happens every now and again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titandriver Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Exactly what happened to me before I throated my barrel. Like yours, it would be an occasional event. So I bought a throater, made a dummy round at 1.260 with a cast bullet, and lengthened the throat until it would drop in and out freely. Since I shoot 174 PF loads I didn't worry about velocity loss and accuracy has not been affected at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 It's happening because the bullet is not alinged with the case everytime and is .002 bigger than a jacketed bullet. make sure your crimp is at .417-.418 & no bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titandriver Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Benny -- if it's a bullet alignment problem would it still be a problem even after throating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Yes it will be. Try the .417 crimp first. I have a reamer for .401 bullets and one for .3995 jacketed bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 (edited) Benny -- if it's a bullet alignment problem would it still be a problem even after throating? If you're talking about reaming the chamber, that's different than "throating" when used in the context of 1911 pistols and their derivatives. Throating means recontouring and opening up the rear of the barrel and feed ramp to improve feeding. Edited December 25, 2012 by Carmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titandriver Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 From the Clymers' web site: THROATERS Sometimes called “freebore reamers”, throaters are used to extend the throat of a chamber in order to give more clearance around the bullet. Benny said the cause of his jams were a mis-alignment of the bullet in the brass case. I was wondering if that mis-alignment issue would still be the cause of jams even after the barrel had been throated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RippSpeed Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 (edited) This has been happening to my custom 6" ... My 6" would have the same issue ( problem #1 ) it would not lock up completely , but this only sometimes... Thank you for your post and it enlightened me ... I'll have to have my barrel re-reamed by my gunsmith to help with my moly coated bullets... Edited December 31, 2012 by RippSpeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titandriver Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 All I know for certain is that two of my SVI Limited pistols shot 180 moly with no problems and two of them would not. I bought a throater from Clymer, set the depth using one of the barrels that would shoot 'em, and throated the two that would not. Now, all four of them shoot 180 moly through 220 cast flawlessly with absolutely no other changes. And that's been after thousands of rounds. Worked for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grump Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Such a problem being occasional *can* be partially caused by: 1. A bullet that was dropped or otherwise given a flat spot at the rear of the ogive. Flat here usually = high on either side. Think metal work and how stamped letters on a slide leave a raised "crater" if not polished off before the metal is finished. Probably second or third most common. 2. A bullet that met a bit more resistance on seating, or in the lubri-sizer, which can "bulge" the ogive area. Quite rare, as it takes a LOT. Probably least common. 3. A bullet that deviates from the norm for any number of reasons--mold not quite closed on casting, manufacturing variations in commercial gang molds (like those wheel types used on the automated systems), and who knows what else. Probably the first or second most common. 4. NOT quite what you have pictured with that obvious skid mark, but shaved lead at the case mouth can have the same effect. This one probably ties for second and third most common. Lack of chamfer and/or inadequate belling and sometimes just having the bullet a bit too tipped away from the axis of the case when starting the seat operation. Gums up pistols which headspace on the case mouth more than they gum up revolvers--especially because revolver chambers are usually NOT with a step, but with a smooth sort of cone-shaped leade in front of the chamber proper. If loading a bit shorter than that makes the pistol choke, then re-examination of the quality of the build would be in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuildSF4 Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I've measured the bullets and they're 0.402 though. Supposed to be 0.401... OAL is set at 1.16 (I shortened it from 1.18 to see if maybe the bullet was engaging rifling too soon) I just figure if the oversized bullets were the cause then it'd happen more/all the time. Problem 2: Had this once occur today. FTfeed, last round in the mag (newish grams guts). Bullet is close to vertical. Base of brass is under the breach face still in magish. Is this just a problem of my feed lips being open to much? Or maybe a freak occurrence. Or OAL too short? 40 caliber jacketed bullets are .401, 40 caliber lead bullets are .402 (this is to allow for proper 'upset' of the bullet to engage the rifling. Out of round bullets, feed ramp problems, tipped bullets or a short leade (leade- distance between end of chamber and start of the rifling, sometimes called throat) can all couse this. Lead bullets are 'sticky' compared to jaketed, plated or moly, and can exaserbate a feed ramp issue (polishing the feed ramp and chamber entrance (called throating on semi-auto pistols) can help this (Brian has a post on how to do this). The second issue could easily be either of the causes you mention. Most people I know load long for a 40 caliber 2011. My loads are at 1.200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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