Forcing activation of prop at level 2

[38SuperDub]

Question:

Can a level 2 match force you to activate a wide open visible target prior to engaging it?

[aztecdriver]

Question:

Can a level 2 match force you to activate a wide open visible target prior to engaging it?

Only by design. You can not define it in the WSB. If it's visible prior to activation, at LVL II and up, you can engage it prior to activation... FYE:

2.1.8.5 Appearing scoring targets must be designed and constructed to be obscured to the competitor (during the course of fire) prior to activation.

2.1.8.5.1 Level I matches are encouraged but not required to strictly comply with this requirement. The written stage briefing may prohibit competitors from engaging certain target(s) which may be visible prior to activation until the operation of the activating mechanism has been initiated (see Rule 9.9.4)

[OUshooter]

What if the start position was on top of an activator that was not part of the shooting area. Once you step off, into the shooting area, the target/array is activated?

[38SuperDub]

I guess 1.1.5 would also apply right?

Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permit- ted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to com- pel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

[Sarge]

Question:

Can a level 2 match force you to activate a wide open visible target prior to engaging it?

No. But remember:

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss

penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates

the target movement.

Just don't forget to activate it at some point.

[38SuperDub]

In this particular case it's not. The activator is pretty much the last thing of the stage.

[Sarge]

I guess 1.1.5 would also apply right?

Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permit- ted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an "as and when visible" basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to com- pel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

It does apply but not as much as the other, more specific, rules already cited.

[38SuperDub]

Would it be considered an "appearing target" if its already 100% visible though? It's not a swinger that only partially available it's 100% visible.

[sperman]

If it is 100% visible, why would it need to be activated? Maybe a Texas Star that the stage designer thinks needs to be spinning before you engage it?

Check out this thread. While not directly on topic, the argument may still apply.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=129124

[38SuperDub]

The same activator activates 4 things one of which is 100% visible at first.

[38SuperDub]

Sperman,

What if the WSB doesn't say it but the RO tells you to?

Follow the WSB and the rules?

[OUshooter]

The same activator activates 4 things one of which is 100% visible at first.

I know I haven't seen it all, but if it's Lvl II or > and you can see it you can shoot it. If the RM doesn't like it then that's on them for poor stage design.

The only thing I can think of is if shooting the a fore mentioned target did something crazy like send a round over the berm. In that case it's poor stage design, but on the shooter(DQ) for taking the shot.

[OUshooter]

Sperman,

What if the WSB doesn't say it but the RO tells you to?

Follow the WSB and the rules?

Unfortunately it's a lot like flying on a plane and taking your gun with you. When standing at the counter with paperwork and pistol you will be the most enlightened person in the conversation.

[Nik Habicht]

What if the start position was on top of an activator that was not part of the shooting area. Once you step off, into the shooting area, the target/array is activated?

The competitor can still engage the target from the start position. Of course procedurals might negate any advantage inherent in that plan....

[Nik Habicht]

Sperman,

What if the WSB doesn't say it but the RO tells you to?

Follow the WSB and the rules?

Sure. But you'll likely be hit with penalties, if the RO's telling you so, and then you'll need to arbitrate to either overturn the penalties or have the stage tossed....

[aztecdriver]

Sperman,

What if the WSB doesn't say it but the RO tells you to?

Follow the WSB and the rules?

Sure. But you'll likely be hit with penalties, if the RO's telling you so, and then you'll need to arbitrate to either overturn the penalties or have the stage tossed....

If the moving target is fully/legally visible prior to activation (I say legally so were not talking about a swinger that is under a wall at rest, which is not available as the wall goes to the ground), and the RO tells you a procedural will be applied for engaging the target - I'd call the RM over to the stage and have a discussion prior to shooting the stage. Assuming level II or higher. This exact situation occurred at a recent major and even though the RO wasn't pleased, if it's available it's available. You don't have the ability to "read" restrictions into the WSB in this situation.

[sperman]

The only thing I can think of is if shooting the a fore mentioned target did something crazy like send a round over the berm. In that case it's poor stage design, but on the shooter(DQ) for taking the shot.

Agreed that it is poor stage design, but it is not a DQ unless specified in the WSB as being unsafe.

10.4.1 A shot, which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction, specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being unsafe. Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target, which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified (the provisions of Section 2.3 may apply).

[sperman]

Sperman,

What if the WSB doesn't say it but the RO tells you to?

Follow the WSB and the rules?

Sure. But you'll likely be hit with penalties, if the RO's telling you so, and then you'll need to arbitrate to either overturn the penalties or have the stage tossed....

Unfortunately, this is what it comes down to. What are the possible outcomes?

1. The RM agrees with you and overturns the CRO's call. Hopefully the RM and CRO have already discussed the call, so the likelihood of the call going your way is unlikely.

2. The RM agrees with the CRO and you get hit with penalties.

3. The stage gets tossed and everybody loses.

I would talk to the RM before the start of the match. Maybe you can convince him that the WSB needs to be changed, or that the target is available before activation. He may tell you "NROI approved it." Either way, you will know where he stands before you shoot the stage and possibly avoid unnecessary penalties. At that point I would accept his call and move on. Don't let it ruin your day / match. You can always file a complaint with NROI after the fact if you still think they got it wrong.

[aztecdriver]

I would talk to the RM before the start of the match. Maybe you can convince him that the WSB needs to be changed, or that the target is available before activation. He may tell you "NROI approved it." Either way, you will know where he stands before you shoot the stage and possibly avoid unnecessary penalties. At that point I would accept his call and move on. Don't let it ruin your day / match. You can always file a complaint with NROI after the fact if you still think they got it wrong.

NROI approved the diagrams. Construction and actual placement is on the staff - specifically the RM during the match. Where I differ is that I would not accept the call and deal with it then. I'd have a call placed to an NROI member with the RM. To me, an illegal stage, which is what it is if they are specifying activation at Lvl II or higher, is different than a scoring call or something subjective like demanding a specific start position not completely specified in the WSB. There's a hole the size of a train in the stage, and according to the rules, I'm free to exploit that hole. Telling me I'm not able to shoot the stage within the rules affects the integrity of the match and should be addressed.

This situation is not uncommon and I as of yet, have not seen an RM make the proper call with regard to addressing this on a stage.

[OUshooter]

Thanks Sperman. Guess I need to comb the rule book more.

[sperman]

I would talk to the RM before the start of the match. Maybe you can convince him that the WSB needs to be changed, or that the target is available before activation. He may tell you "NROI approved it." Either way, you will know where he stands before you shoot the stage and possibly avoid unnecessary penalties. At that point I would accept his call and move on. Don't let it ruin your day / match. You can always file a complaint with NROI after the fact if you still think they got it wrong.

NROI approved the diagrams. Construction and actual placement is on the staff - specifically the RM during the match. Where I differ is that I would not accept the call and deal with it then. I'd have a call placed to an NROI member with the RM. To me, an illegal stage, which is what it is if they are specifying activation at Lvl II or higher, is different than a scoring call or something subjective like demanding a specific start position not completely specified in the WSB. There's a hole the size of a train in the stage, and according to the rules, I'm free to exploit that hole. Telling me I'm not able to shoot the stage within the rules affects the integrity of the match and should be addressed.

This situation is not uncommon and I as of yet, have not seen an RM make the proper call with regard to addressing this on a stage.

From a DRL point of view, I completely agree with what you are saying.

As a competitor who is there to shoot the match, I would handle it differently. Do I want to spend the day shooting, or arguing with match staff? If, by some chance, you get the RM to call a member of NROI, the likely outcome is that the stage gets tossed. Assuming the match started on Thursday or Friday, there is no way for everyone who already shot the stage to get a chance to re-shoot it, so the right call is to toss the stage. As a competitor who probably drove several hours, spent money on a hotel room, entry fee, etc. I would prefer to shoot the stage than to have it go away.

If the RM was worth his salt, he would have already read the rulebook and/or made the call to NROI. The fact that the stage is still in the match as described makes me feel like it would be futile to try and win the argument. Either someone at NROI has already told him that the stage can be run that way, or he doesn't really care about the rules at this point. Either way, his mind is probably already made up.

Edited September 29, 2012 by sperman

[Chills1994]

Then what's the point of having CRO/RM training?

[Nik Habicht]

Sperman,

What if the WSB doesn't say it but the RO tells you to?

Follow the WSB and the rules?

Sure. But you'll likely be hit with penalties, if the RO's telling you so, and then you'll need to arbitrate to either overturn the penalties or have the stage tossed....

If the moving target is fully/legally visible prior to activation (I say legally so were not talking about a swinger that is under a wall at rest, which is not available as the wall goes to the ground), and the RO tells you a procedural will be applied for engaging the target - I'd call the RM over to the stage and have a discussion prior to shooting the stage. Assuming level II or higher. This exact situation occurred at a recent major and even though the RO wasn't pleased, if it's available it's available. You don't have the ability to "read" restrictions into the WSB in this situation.

I'm not arguing that you can -- just that it occasionally happens. I'm still slightly ticked over a bad RM call in a similar situation at a major in 2003 -- though I realize that wasn't the fault of the match organizers. They picked a less than ideal RM, and learned from the situation.....

[Nik Habicht]

Then what's the point of having CRO/RM training?

To provide a foundation. Where the individual goes with that, is up to them. Some can build a skyscraper with the foundation, while others will have difficulty getting a single story house built. It's the way it works with a volunteer RO corps....

[sperman]

On several occasions I've wondered if the requirements to be a L2 RM should be more stringent.