First Try! Double Barrel

[polizei1]

See post #21 for the updated design

Ok guys, I've been shooting USPSA for just over a year now. I've always wanted to try my hand at designing a stage and today I tried to design my first one.

Let me know if it's legal (level 1) and if I need to change anything. I would like to design more stages and possibly have them implemented into some local matches.

I still don't know how to design the "stage brief" so I'll just explain it:

Standing in Box A (or B ), handgun will be unloaded and placed on the barrel facing downrange. Shooter will be facing up range, hands at sides. Upon the start signal, the shooter will engage targets as they become visible. The shooter will then move to the opposite box and engage the remaining tagets. Shooter is required to perform a mandatory reload between shooting boxes.

If setup correctly, the shooter will be required to shoot through the "small" gap in the barrel, and the paper targets will be covered by the outside barrel. This will require the shooter to lean around the outside barrel to engage the 2 paper targets.

I could always add a wall or something in the middle if necessary so people don't shoot both sides from one box. That wasn't the idea!

Good, bad, ugly?

Edited September 27, 2012 by polizei1

[Skydiver]

Right now, you are leaning heavily on the Level I exception:

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course).

Always try to design your stages planning for a Level II or higher match. Who knows if you want to recycle the stage for a level II match later, or submit it as classifier to NROI or USPSA. Fallback on the Level I exceptions only when things have been planted on the ground and problems are encountered on match day during the RM/RO walk through and you are out of props or time to fix things.

Having said that, I actually like your stage setup up as is with the other array of targets visible from the opposite box. I would loosen the requirement that they must be engaged from the other box. I would just make the requirement that a mandatory reload be done before engaging the other array of paper targets. The barrels provide the splitting of views much like the way views are split by the two sides of a barricade. The mandatory reload and multiple views satisfies 1.2.1.2.

By leaving it open this way, you give the shooter multiple options and multiple things to think about. It also makes the stage revolver friendly. By making the paper available from the same box you also give open and limited shooters a chance to goof and forget the mandatory reload.

Do they just do a standing reload in the box they started in? Do they take the longer but open shots on the opposite array? Do they go to slide lock? Do they take the time to move to the other box and get setup again to engage all or some of the targets from the other box? Will a production shooter shoot T1-2, pour on the speed on all the steel, and absorb the slide lock and reload time while running over to the opposite box, shoot the remaining paper from a closer distance and still have enough rounds as a backup plan in case some steel was left standing?

I hope that you won't mind if I steal your stage idea. I'll make sure to give you credit when the stage gets setup.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Skydiver

[HostileHabitat]

Your Background Needs Landscaping!

[bikerburgess]

the only thing that I have a problem with is the mandatory reload. you can only mandate a reload on a speed shoot or a standards course of fire. you ca add a note in the stage briefing saying that each array must be engaged from the appropriate box at a level one match but I would much prefer to add a wall or barrel to force the movement. So I would loose the mandatory reload and add the wall between the arrays so they cant shoot it all from one box and you should be good to go.

Mike

The stage description templates are available on the USPSA we site at the attached link.

http://www.uspsa.org/NROI-stage-design.php

[bikerburgess]

Right now, you are leaning heavily on the Level I exception:

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course).

Always try to design your stages planning for a Level II or higher match. Who knows if you want to recycle the stage for a level II match later, or submit it as classifier to NROI or USPSA. Fallback on the Level I exceptions only when things have been planted on the ground and problems are encountered on match day during the RM/RO walk through and you are out of props or time to fix things.

I forgot you can force a reload with the level one exemption, thanks for posting the rule. that said I still prefer to not use it unless there is no way to avoid it.

Mike

[polizei1]

Thanks! Skydiver, I see your point and I appreciate the advice. I didn't think about it, but I completely agree that instead of making it mandatory to shoot one side, leave it open and let the shooter decide. I think that would fit the "principal" of freestyle better.

I'll re-design it to show this. I was also thinking about adding another steel popper to the mix to make it 8rds on each side. Doing so would require either a slide lock or additional planning on execution for SS major guys. Or maybe just add another popper in the middle?

Edit*

Here we go. All I did (obviously) was add an additional popper in the middle.

Biker, do you happen to have a .doc link? I'm on a Mac and can't run that .exe like USPSA is saying to do. At least, I don't know how too...

Edited September 25, 2012 by polizei1

[Graham Smith]

Here is where I think you are going to have a problem...

When you go to layout a COF, you often find that things don't look the same and angles of fire change. You are going to have to adjust the targets so that they cannot all be shot from a single box. That' can be harder than you think since you are already a couple feet behind the barrels and can move to the back of the box, plus either side. That will give an Open shooter a lot of wiggle room.

The trick to something like this is to put at least one target on each side that can ONLY be hit from that side. That forces the shooter to move.

[polizei1]

I added the overhead view as well. Graham, are you saying that I should make the design so that the shooter has to shoot from both boxes?

My original implication was to force the shooter to move by only shooting one side at a time. Then after the advice from Skydiver, I was going to leave it open so that everything could be shot from one box, however you would still need to move your body to manipulate around the barrels.

What if I added another double-barrel to each side....brb

Ok what about this. Adding the walls will require the shooter to shoot from both boxes to be able to see all of the targets. For example, from box A (left side) the shooter would be able to hit the 3 steel, and the 2 paper targets on the right side of the COF. The shooter would then run to the right side (Box B ) and would engage the 3 steel on that side, plus the steel in the middle, and the 2 paper on the left side.

At least in the drawing, the two walls would act as a barricade so the paper targets would HAVE to be engaged from the opposite side. Having the no-shoot in the middle would certainly slow people down.

Edited September 25, 2012 by polizei1

[Skydiver]

Yup, we all have different preferences for styles of stages we like. I was viewing your stage through my filters. Thanks for having an open mind and listening.

@Graham Smith does have a good point about keeping it simple, and if you really want the movement, definitely hide a set of targets so that movement is forced. It depends on what skills you want the shooter to exercise, or forcing the shooter to make a decision of risk vs. reward.

@bikerburgess is correct about the mandatory reload. Without the Level I exception, it can only be used in a speed shoot or standards CoF. Since there are two shooting locations, this can't be a speed shoot. And unless you want to run two strings virginia count, it can't be a standards course because of the steel as well as going over the round count limit. So if you really want the mandatory reload there, you'll need the level I exception.

The mere fact that we are discussing this stage means that you have a good stage design that has peaked people's interest. Good job!

BTW, I also like the update design with the walls. If the shooter really wanted to take the time and effort to lean back around the wall, they can stay in one box, but they'll have to make that hard decision. I like!

Edited September 25, 2012 by Skydiver

[polizei1]

Skydiver, I've been busy editing and coming up with some other ideas. Please see post #8.

I think I like this setup the most. It will require NO mandatory reloads, but will force the shooter to move and shoot from both boxes. Leaning around the wall will be extremely difficult I'd imagine. They would also have to be conscious of the 180 while doing so.

Edit* While looking at it again in the software, it appears that the shooter will be able to shoot all the steel from one box, however they would have to shift their body to hit the paper targets from the same box. Is this still legal?

Edited September 25, 2012 by polizei1

[bikerburgess]

Edit* While looking at it again in the software, it appears that the shooter will be able to shoot all the steel from one box, however they would have to shift their body to hit the paper targets from the same box. Is this still legal?

I have been told that as long as the shooter has to change their body position(lean) to engage some of the targets that should satisfy the rules.

Mike

[bikerburgess]

Here is where I think you are going to have a problem...

When you go to layout a COF, you often find that things don't look the same and angles of fire change. You are going to have to adjust the targets so that they cannot all be shot from a single box. That' can be harder than you think since you are already a couple feet behind the barrels and can move to the back of the box, plus either side. That will give an Open shooter a lot of wiggle room.

The trick to something like this is to put at least one target on each side that can ONLY be hit from that side. That forces the shooter to move.

Graham is way right when you are actually setting up the stage, everything will need to be adjusted and looked at from several angles and preferably by another person as well, it always surprises me when I set up a course and think I have all the holes plugged and the first shooter up finds something I missed and runs with it, but that is half the fun.

Mike

[moose64]

Its nice to see newer shooters stepping up and wanting to design and set up stages....the effort will be appreciated by your local club memebers.

Looks like you have some good ideas, when designing stages, always remember rule 1.1.5 freestyle. And as in a previous post, design the stages as if they were going to be used in a level II match or higher. Just throwing this out there for you to consider, I would do away with the boxes, have barrels like you had in first pict, put a wall up between the barrels, and then use fault lines at left and right outer barrels, and maybe elevate one of the single barrels so they will have to shoot under it at the poppers...have start position be, "standing facing down range, with hands on "X's" of center wall...? just a thought to consider. I am not a fan of boxes..then you will have made it freestyle..

[polizei1]

I'll have to check with the club Moose, I'm not sure if they have the props to elevate the barrel like that. I certainly plan on designing more courses, don't get me wrong. I was just trying to think of a simple, fun course for my first swing at it.

So what do you guys think about the updated course with the walls? Post #8

Edited September 25, 2012 by polizei1

[Chris Keen]

Get rid of the boxes. Force the shooter to do what you want them to, through the use of walls and vision barriers. Barrels are bad stage props because too many RO's do not paste/tape the holes when barrels get shot up, and then there's no way to prove a hit has or has NOT passed thru a barrel. It's much simpler with walls to attach a no-shoot or simply paste / tape holes.

[polizei1]

Darn, back to the drawing board!

What if I change the barrels to walls and use a fault line instead of the boxes with a wall down the middle?

I REALLY don't think anyone would shoot a barrel in this design (they are completely out of the way) but I also understand your reasoning, it just happened Sunday. I know the barrels can be a PITA if setup next to a paper target where a shoot through (from a miss) is very likely.

Edited September 26, 2012 by polizei1

[moose64]

The way you have the stage desinged, the barrels should not be an issue, but what can be done is to paint the barrels white where there might be a possibility of a round striking the surface, I have done this at level I,II,and III matches. and the barrels make a distinct sound when hit. then you can clearly see if barrel was hit with the white paint, then you just put a paster on it.

[polizei1]

All of the barrels at the club are indeed white.

I'm working on another stage now, I'll have it up hopefully tomorrow night. This is quite fun!

[PistoleroJesse]

there's no way to prove a hit has or has NOT passed thru a barrel.

You don't check for grease rings?

[Graham Smith]

Don't get hung up on the minutia of the design. You have a good concept. Figure out what you want to accomplish and adjust it when you set it up. A stage design is a guide.

As much as possible, you want to make your stages freestyle. Don't tell the shooter, "Stand here and shoot these targets, then move there and shoot those." Set it up so that there is at least one target that can only be hit from each position. That forces them to move but allows them to decide what they want to shoot from where.

Also, bear in mind that you cannot setup a stage where a shooter is forced to fire more than 8 rounds from any one position (or view) or can hit all targets from a single position (or view). The "or view" gives you a lot of latitude in this case because each shooting position is essentially three views.

[polizei1]

I appreciate all of the help!

Hopefully this is the last update with this particular stage, unless of course you guys see something that I don't. I will also attach a stage brief when I get an opportunity and the template.

Getting rid of the boxes (thanks Chris) was a great idea. Now it's truly freestyle and the shooter can do what they want. The only thing required on this course will be an unloaded barrel start on either barrel. Shooter will start in the middle on the rear fault line with toes on X's (facing up-range), hands naturally at sides.

Edited September 27, 2012 by polizei1

[Sarge]

Edit* While looking at it again in the software, it appears that the shooter will be able to shoot all the steel from one box, however they would have to shift their body to hit the paper targets from the same box. Is this still legal?

1.2.1.2 “Medium Courses” must not require more than 16 rounds to

complete and no more than 3 shooting locations. Course design

and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from

any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all

targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.

[Chris Keen]

I appreciate all of the help!

Hopefully this is the last update with this particular stage, unless of course you guys see something that I don't. I will also attach a stage brief when I get an opportunity and the template.

Getting rid of the boxes (thanks Chris) was a great idea. Now it's truly freestyle and the shooter can do what they want. The only thing required on this course will be an unloaded barrel start on either barrel. Shooter will start in the middle on the rear fault line with toes on X's (facing up-range), hands naturally at sides.

FYI ...... It's perfectly ok to use the phrase "facing up-range" but when you do so, you invoke a very strict start position. Appendix A3 in the rule book defines "Facing Uprange" as "Face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parallel to the backstop.". So it's quite alright to say "Facing Uprange" in your stage diagram, but be prepared to enforce that start position. I've seen far too many stages that said that in the WSB, but the RO's didn't abide by that strict definition.

It's 1,000 times easier to just say "Toes on Xs" and let the Xs define which way the shooter starts.

EDIT TO ADD: Betcha didn't know you were going to get a crash course in designing a perfectly legal Level III stage, now did ya? The problem with stage design is we have a very strict rule book, and while that's actually a GOOD thing for most eveyone, it's a PITA for stage designers .... but you've got a good start here. Just keep polishing the edges and I think you'll have a great stage, and learn a lot in the process!

Edited September 27, 2012 by Chris Keen

[polizei1]

Oh believe me, I knew it wasn't going to be easy, but I'm very interested in learning how to design a good course that meets the rulebook and would actually be able to be used (even if it never is). I wanted to learn, which is why I came here! The wealth of knowledge is unbelievable.

So with the "facing uprange" taken out and "toes on X's" in place, is where anything else I would need to change Chris?

[Chris Keen]

It's completely legal as is (even with the facing uprange language included), and it looks like a fun stage.

In face it's got a great base to build from if you ever wanted to add to it. If you think you'd like to keep it a medium course, then I believe you're done (with 16 being the limit on Mediums).

But if you wanted to expand it you could move the side walls downrange a tad, and add 1 or 2 more targets on each side (up to 8 shots max), you could even add a third vertical wall down the middle of your elongated free-fire zone, and then add more steel or paper targets downrange somewhere.

You could even go back to the 2 boxes you had and put a narrow "plank" type walkway between them, and deem it a "free-fire zone". That gives the ability to shoot on the move, or from any choice of position in the stage, keeps it legal, and yet still gives it that box-to-box feel that you started with.

Here's an example:

Edited September 27, 2012 by Chris Keen