cpa5oh Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I've got an 85 combat that I've been shooting in USPSA Production for about 3 months now. I've manually decocked the hammer hundreds and hundreds of times with no issue. Gun *had* an 11.5# hammer spring in it. Gun also has an extended firing pin and reduced power firing pin spring. I was never comfortable with the idea that I HAD to use Federal Small Pistol primers, and Federal primers are scarce right now around here, so this week I put the 13# hammer spring back in the gun. Didn't shoot it with the 13# spring in it before today's match. FIRST stage I decocked as normal and the gun went off - DQ. (I had the gun pointed straight downrange into the berm, so there was no danger to anyone as far as I could tell...but it was a DQ nonetheless.) The way I was lowering the hammer before must've been fine with the 11.5# spring, but not with the 13# spring (there really is a big difference, as noticed with the difference in the DA pull.) I went to the gun range and practiced lowering the hammer - definitely, there's less room for error with the 13# spring. I've gone back and read a bunch of threads here and on Enos about lowering that hammer manually. I think I can do it without a problem if I do it a little differently than I was doing it before (rather than simply pinching the hammer, I'll pinch it with a third finger in between the hammer and firing pin and slip the third finger out as the hammer lowers.) Question I have is whether you guys are using the extended firing pin with reduced power firing pin spring AND the 13# hammer spring? I'm a little spooked that the little bit of free travel that hammer had set the gun off...wondering if maybe the 13# spring AND extended firing pin/spring makes it more dangerous than it needs to be. Thanks for any input you might have! I have never done anything unsafe at a match and, even though this probably doesn't put anyone in danger, it's a DQ for a reason and I don't want to repeat it (and I don't want to go to shooting a plastic gun.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningsquirrels Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 i replied on CZF. are you pulling the hammer back before pulling hte trigger? and it almost sounds like you're letting it jump the last mm or so of the decocking process. are you controlling it all the way down until it is at rest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 I try to control it all the way down...it slipped on me today. Caught me off guard with how heavy it dropped given the change in hammer spring. (I posted both places because getting DQ'ed is about the worst thing that could happen at a match.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brbanks1 Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Is it ok to lower to the "half cock position"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 If the range officer notices it isn't fully decocked, it wouldn't be okay. You'd be shooting in the Limited division instead of Production if you did that...I think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Dan- I felt bad for you the whole day, but I know you'll be back in business in no time mowing targets down. Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 Dan- I felt bad for you the whole day, but I know you'll be back in business in no time mowing targets down. Randy Oh hey Randy! Hope you shot well...and I hope I wasn't a distraction with that DQ. I just gotta change the way I drop the hammer is all - next time we shoot together I'll make it through both guns without a DQ :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Oh hey Randy! Hope you shot well...and I hope I wasn't a distraction with that DQ. I just gotta change the way I drop the hammer is all - next time we shoot together I'll make it through both guns without a DQ :-) Not so much a distraction, just a concern with your CZ. Us mechanical enginners always wonder what happened when machines don't work right. Did the slide get you when the round went off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 No the slide didn't get me...it was weird in that it didn't really fire off a full shot. Didn't even eject the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningsquirrels Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Is it ok to lower to the "half cock position"? No. It must be all the way down. Otherwise, it would not be an appropriate ready condition and could be a DQ for holstering an unsafe gun. Rule 8.1.2.3 describes selective action's ready condition as having the hammer fully down or hammer back with the safety on. Rule 8.1.5.3 describes what selective action is. See 5.2.2 for handling an improperly safe gun outside a COF. Rule 10.5.11.2 states the DQable condition. Rule 8.2.5 covers re-holstering during a COF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Dan, you handled yourself fine and Randy did shoot well. Why CZ does not provide for at least a decocker is beyond me. My cz-75 P-07 has one. I've watched dozens of shooters do the dance with their CZ's, waiting for that accident. I'm sorry it was you and I was the one with the timer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) Post so nice I made it twice. Edited September 9, 2012 by vluc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningsquirrels Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 You can always buy a decocking sp-01. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 Thanks Vince, I appreciate that. Never considered a DQ as a possibility despite you guys always saying "there are those that have and those that will..." I didn't stick around because I was standing there trying to figure out how to never have that happen again (had to get to my range to work it out) and it was going to burn a hole in me and I think once you get a DQ you should be done for the day (i.e., work out your issues and come back another day.) If I thought you guys needed me to help paste and paint I'd have stayed no doubt, but you had 8 guys so I thought I probably would be more of a distraction by sticking around than anything else. If that ever happens again I switch back to the Glock. I think I've got the technique figured out better. Question I have and the purpose of this thread was - are you CZ guys running 13# hammer springs with the extended firing pin/lightened firing pin spring...or am I inviting danger with this combination? (the extended firing pin/lightened firing pin spring came as a part of a kit from Cajun Gun Works with an 11.5# spring, not a 13# spring.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningsquirrels Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I run a 13# hammer spring with a couple coils cut off and the extended firing pin. Not sure what danger this invites other than light strikes. If you're thinking this has to do with slipping a hammer, the problem is that you're slipping the hammer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Is it ok to lower to the "half cock position"? No. It must be all the way down. Otherwise, it would not be an appropriate ready condition and could be a DQ for holstering an unsafe gun. Rule 8.1.2.3 describes selective action's ready condition as having the hammer fully down or hammer back with the safety on. Rule 8.1.5.3 describes what selective action is. See 5.2.2 for handling an improperly safe gun outside a COF. Rule 10.5.11.2 states the DQable condition. Rule 8.2.5 covers re-holstering during a COF. You can always buy a decocking sp-01. Ok G, a decocker puts the gun at half cock right? Also a Decocker doesn't full Decock the gun it just takes it half way, or at least my PCR does. I'm in the crowd that believes a decocker on a CZ doesn't get the job done that you still need to lower the hammer all the way down. Some guns do fully Decock it I just don't think the CZ is one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningsquirrels Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Great question! I just re-read the rules and don't see anything in there providing for a decocker, just "fully down". It puts it into a grey area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningsquirrels Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 actually, 8.1.2.2 says "hammer decocked" but it only applies to DAO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningsquirrels Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 based upon that... and the CZ is selective action... i guess a CZ decocker can never be reholstered without manual decocking. :shrug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CleverUsername Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 It just seems less safety oriented to decock manually then it is to Holster in condition one. Im a newb so I may just not "get it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SansPants Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 It just seems less safety oriented to decock manually then it is to Holster in condition one. Im a newb so I may just not "get it" This is a bit baffling to me as well, but rules are rules I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningsquirrels Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 This isn't about what's safer, it's about specified start conditions. With regards to re-holstering during a COF, you'll never run into it at a USPSA match. The act of re-holstering can never be required as per the rulebook. The only time I've seen re-holstering is during 3-gun outlaw where you are allowed to mix up the guns amongst different types of targets which is rare. I've only seen it once at a 3 Gun Nation event where Matt Burkett fired some shots with his pistol, holstered, ran his shotgun, then transitioned back to his pistol, to save some time versus how some others shot it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Taliani Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Is it ok to lower to the "half cock position"? No. It must be all the way down. Otherwise, it would not be an appropriate ready condition and could be a DQ for holstering an unsafe gun. Rule 8.1.2.3 describes selective action's ready condition as having the hammer fully down or hammer back with the safety on. Rule 8.1.5.3 describes what selective action is. See 5.2.2 for handling an improperly safe gun outside a COF. Rule 10.5.11.2 states the DQable condition. Rule 8.2.5 covers re-holstering during a COF. You can always buy a decocking sp-01. Ok G, a decocker puts the gun at half cock right? Also a Decocker doesn't full Decock the gun it just takes it half way, or at least my PCR does. I'm in the crowd that believes a decocker on a CZ doesn't get the job done that you still need to lower the hammer all the way down. Some guns do fully Decock it I just don't think the CZ is one of them. Doesn't the NROI ruling on this subject say otherwise: Decocker at half cock "Question: Does the CZ decocker or others similar, lower the hammer sufficiently to comply with Production division, and if not, how would they comply with the wording in 10.5.9 without being DQ'd? Answer: Manufacturers have installed decockers to take the hammer safely to a position that is deemed safe, therefore; the term fully decocked is the position that the hammer rest at once the decocker has been used. Altering a factory installed decocker to bring the hammer to rest at less than a half cocked position is not allowed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 If the hammer is deemed safe at half cock on a decocker version of a CZ, why wouldn't it be deemed safe on a non-decocker version of a CZ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningsquirrels Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Doesn't the NROI ruling on this subject say otherwise: Decocker at half cock "Question: Does the CZ decocker or others similar, lower the hammer sufficiently to comply with Production division, and if not, how would they comply with the wording in 10.5.9 without being DQ'd? Answer: Manufacturers have installed decockers to take the hammer safely to a position that is deemed safe, therefore; the term fully decocked is the position that the hammer rest at once the decocker has been used. Altering a factory installed decocker to bring the hammer to rest at less than a half cocked position is not allowed." Great! I didn't see this one. If the hammer is deemed safe at half cock on a decocker version of a CZ, why wouldn't it be deemed safe on a non-decocker version of a CZ? Good question. Might just be a "this was how it was built and designed" things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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