cliffwalsh Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 If a competitor drops his gun after he has unloaded and shown clear but before he has holstered and the RO has called the range clear, is he DQed?? What if he does not touch the dropped gun and the RO picks the unloaded gun up for the competitor?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 (edited) COF has not ended until the "Range is Clear" therefore; Sorry, but DQ per 10.3.5. Edited August 13, 2004 by kimel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SP2 Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 RO called "Range Clear" b4 gun was holstered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 What kimel said... But I always enjoy the complete answers from Vince.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 If a competitor drops his gun after he has unloaded and shown clear but before he has holstered and the RO has called the range clear, is he DQed?? What if he does not touch the dropped gun and the RO picks the unloaded gun up for the competitor?? COF has not ended until the "Range is Clear" therefore; Sorry, but DQ per 10.3.5. Sorry, but that is not quite correct. The COF ends as follows: 8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his handgun. Once the competitor's hands are clear of the holstered handgun, the course of fire is deemed to have ended. -:but, yes, it is a Match DQ under Rule 10.5.3. Having said all that, the Timer Holder was negligent to declare "Range Clear" before the gun was even holstered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 All of you need to re-read the original question. He said after ULSC, ICHDH, but he said BEFORE the Gun is holsterd and the range is called clear! If a competitor drops his gun after he has unloaded and shown clear but before he has holstered and the RO has called the range clear, is he DQed?? What if he does not touch the dropped gun and the RO picks the unloaded gun up for the competitor?? Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 All of you need to re-read the original question. "All of you"??? OK, pray tell, what's the correct answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 He said after ULSC, ICHDH, but he said BEFORE the Gun is holsterd and the range is called clear! If a competitor drops his gun after he has unloaded and shown clear but before he has holstered and the RO has called the range clear, is he DQed?? What if he does not touch the dropped gun and the RO picks the unloaded gun up for the competitor?? Jim Norman I'm pretty sure the RO said Unload and show clear, Gun clear hammer down holster. Not ulsc ichdh, I'm not even sure what language that is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Absolutely a match DQ, and yelling Range is Clear has nothing to do with the end of the COF. All I will say is that the issue of when the COF ends seems to be one of the issues that many people get confused on. Vince quoted the appropriate rule. "TIMER HOLDER" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 If a competitor drops his gun after he has unloaded and shown clear but before he has holstered and the RO has called the range clear, is he DQed?? What if he does not touch the dropped gun and the RO picks the unloaded gun up for the competitor?? I think what Cliff means is: before he (the competitor) has holstered and before the RO has called the range clear, not that the RO called the range clear before the competitor holstered. In other words, before the RIC command is given, the gun was dropped, although it was empty and shown to be clear by the competitor. Cliff if this is not what you meant, my apologies, and please clarify. Otherwise, yes, it's a DQ, and Vince has detailed why. Vince and Jim, you boys play nice together, now. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 (edited) Anyway, yes, Cliff's question could be read two ways, without the second "before": 1. "... but before he has holstered and the RO has called the range clear ..." (no holstering but the RO already called RC) 2. "... but before he has holstered and the RO has called the range clear ..." (no holstering and before the RO called RC) Either way, it's still a Match DQ but, in the second case, I don't wanna spank the Timer Holder and make BDH laugh! Edited August 13, 2004 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 (edited) Good deal on not spanking the timer holder (at least in public). Troy Edited August 13, 2004 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Pat, It is short hand for: Unload, Show Clear, If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster. Had I also added IYAF for If you Are Finished, would that have helped? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 (On topic. ) Cliff, A dropped gun, loaded or not, during* the course of fire...is a DQ. *The course of fire starts at the command of Load and Make Ready. And, it ends when the holstering of the gun is complete (as posted above). You appear to be mixing "dropped" gun with "grounded" gun. Dropped and grounded are two different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffwalsh Posted August 13, 2004 Author Share Posted August 13, 2004 I should have been more clear. The gun was shown clear then dropped as it was holstered. The RO did not call range clear until he (the RO) had picked up the gun and put it in the shooters holster. This happened at the Area 3 match. The shooter was not DQed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 The RO made a compasionate call. But depending upon the exact moment that the gun fell out of the hoster, he may have made the wrong call. If the competitor had completed holstering and removed his hand from the gun, then an instant passed and the gun fell out, the GOF was completed and there is no DQ. If however the competitor had not completed holstering, he dropped his gun on the way to his holster or had not yet seated the gun in the holster and removed his hand from the gun, then the shooter by the rules should have been DQ'd. Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffwalsh Posted August 13, 2004 Author Share Posted August 13, 2004 The gun was dropped before it was holstered. I thought that as long as the gun was unloaded it was OK as long as the RO picked it up. I guess I should study the rules harder. I think Flex was right. I was thinking of the grounded gun rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Oops! Thanks for clearing that up. The competitor should have received a DQ. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 If a competitor drops his gun after he has unloaded and shown clear but before he has holstered ........ The gun was shown clear then dropped as it was holstered. The gun was dropped before it was holstered. BARTENDER !!! Make that a triple JD, straight up ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Thats unfair Vince - you are confussing him.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Aw schucks ............. Actually I love trying to help people understand the rules and how they apply to various incidents, but my advice often comes back to bite me on the ass when the original story flip-flops, and sometimes one word will do it. Anyway, I certainly don't mean to beat up on poor old Cliff, especially since he's new here, but it's important for those seeking guidance to be very clear with the way they recount incidents from the very outset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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