Which sear for your trigger job?

[Sin-ster]

For those of you doing trigger work on the M&P, which sear do you prefer to put the stone to?

Factory MiM?

Pro-Series factory part?

APEX Hard Sear?

I was looking at the three of them side-by-side, along with a couple that Dan himself has worked on, and the Pro Series part is just... odd/ugly. There's a massive shelf cut into the disco loop contact area already, though the angle is not compound as per the APEX and already-cut sears. I'm wondering if that makes it unusable for trigger work-- I'm trying to use up spare parts here!

Anyone had much success using one-- and if not, what option do you prefer?

Edited September 6, 2012 by Sin-ster

[High Lord Gomer]

I am so tickled with the Apex sears I see no reason to try to do anything more to them. What more are you trying to get out of it?

[Sin-ster]

I am so tickled with the Apex sears I see no reason to try to do anything more to them. What more are you trying to get out of it?

A lot-- with factory springs.

Really, it's a matter of balancing parts when you add pre and over travel stops; I simply cannot fine tune engagement by tweaking the trigger bar loop alone. I know a lot of folks are stoning the APEX Hard Sears because they're so very close to the ultimate desired profiles-- and they're not just crappily surface hardened, so they stand up to the work and the actual shooting.

On almost every APEX kit that I've dropped in for other folks, I've noticed quite a bit of grittiness in the pull as well. Most of it will clean up with use-- but not all.

Don't get me wrong-- their parts are fabulous, without a doubt. But you're never going to accomplish with drop-ins what a full hand treatment will-- and especially not with a full set of stock springs. The mythical "M&P 1911" is very much real, but they don't sell everything you need to make it happen in little jewelry bags.

[Trident]

I found the Pro sear to be much smoother and it did not have a "click" associated with it on the initial first part of the travel. I can make the sear "click" back and forth, backl and forth prior to moving to the second half of the trigger pull. I have exchanged every part with new parts and it is isolated to the sear. I spoke to Scott at Apex, sent them a video, and received a new sear from Apex that made no to maybe little difference. Since then Apex has ignored all phone calls and emails to solve the problem for over two months now.

The Pro sear with Apex parts is a much smoother trigger action but it is 1/2 heavier from just under 3 to just over 3.

[Sin-ster]

I found the Pro sear to be much smoother and it did not have a "click" associated with it on the initial first part of the travel. I can make the sear "click" back and forth, backl and forth prior to moving to the second half of the trigger pull. I have exchanged every part with new parts and it is isolated to the sear. I spoke to Scott at Apex, sent them a video, and received a new sear from Apex that made no to maybe little difference. Since then Apex has ignored all phone calls and emails to solve the problem for over two months now.

The Pro sear with Apex parts is a much smoother trigger action but it is 1/2 heavier from just under 3 to just over 3.

The extra weight is from the odd cut they've made to the Pro Series sear where it connects with the loop-- it's flat and almost certainly has to cause some "stack" before the sear can trip the striker.

What you're reporting with the "click" is pretty baffling. I know that installing an AEK on a factory gun will leave the claw on the trigger safety sloppily hanging in the wind, so that it clicks during take up of the initial slack (which is vastly increased when you add the Hard Sear, and even more so with the Apex spring kits.) Pulling that trigger (A LOT), especially while intentionally causing the click, will eventually wear the polymer into place so that it doesn't happen any more. (Subsequently, a file can accomplish the same thing-- but that would be illegal per the exact letter of the USPSA Rulebook, for Production Division. It still leaves that safety operable, but it's an "external modification"...)

If that's not the cause of your click, there may be some odd engagement between your striker and the rear of the sear. The vast majority of the guns in which I've dropped in AEK's have experienced a nasty grittiness/stacking creep just before the striker drops, until the gun is shot a couple thousand times or the striker and the sear are given a little buff and love. 99.99% of owners never notice it-- but those familiar with M&Ps with full trigger jobs seem to notice it right away. If yours is particularly bad, that might be the cause of the "click" you report; I know the first time I felt one out, it was like nails on a chalkboard...

Did you swap out the actual trigger bar-- or just the parts that APEX offers/replaces? If your trigger bar (or the loop itself) were bent, it may not be resetting underneath the sear until you take up some slack on the trigger. This would certainly give you a tactile and audible "click" when it slipped back into place-- although you would also notice that no such click existed if you rode the reset. The sear that comes in the Pro Series guns from the factory could possible negate this, as the cut is flat and steep in the sear where the loop engages it, compared to the compound angle/teardrop shape of the APEX part.

That would require some RADICAL bending, though...

[Trident]

Nope not the plastic trigger piece or the RAM reset which operates properly. I also had some grit which initially thought may have been the center rough surface of the USB but Scott and I eliminated that. 1500 dry fires took care of the grit.

Here is the video link.

Fast forward to the 45 second mark.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Trident

[Sin-ster]

Ahh, so the click is as you let back out after taking most of the initial weight off the pull. Good video.

That's the exact same part in the trigger travel where the grittiness I always feel after dropping in the Hard Sear occurs. But I've never heard/felt it "click" after letting off-- and the very first kit I installed, I spent a few hours doing exactly what you were in that video to try to soften up the feel. (Eventually the parts mated up a little better and most of the gunkiness went away. The owner shot it a few thousand times and it was buttery smooth after that.)

At that point in the travel, the loop is engaging the sear and the striker claw is sliding up the back of it as well. I'm guessing that if you pull the slide off, disengage the sear disconnect lever and work the trigger, you don't get that click or even the same heavy feel there? (It would take a seriously notched up trigger bar loop to make that happen, especially if you've tried different Hard Sears.)

That narrows it down to the striker/sear engagement, which is also most definitely where the initial grittiness comes from. Without handling the gun, it's hard to speculate which of the two is actually making the noise. I wish I would have known about it last week-- I was in FL (St. Pete) for quite a long period of time and would have liked to check it out!

[beastfrog]

If I were to start with a fresh sear for custom modification, it would be one from Kenny at Speed Shooters Specialties. He sells a CNC tool steel replacement that pretty much matches the standard factory sear.

[Trident]

Ahh, so the click is as you let back out after taking most of the initial weight off the pull. Good video.

That's the exact same part in the trigger travel where the grittiness I always feel after dropping in the Hard Sear occurs. But I've never heard/felt it "click" after letting off-- and the very first kit I installed, I spent a few hours doing exactly what you were in that video to try to soften up the feel. (Eventually the parts mated up a little better and most of the gunkiness went away. The owner shot it a few thousand times and it was buttery smooth after that.)

At that point in the travel, the loop is engaging the sear and the striker claw is sliding up the back of it as well. I'm guessing that if you pull the slide off, disengage the sear disconnect lever and work the trigger, you don't get that click or even the same heavy feel there? (It would take a seriously notched up trigger bar loop to make that happen, especially if you've tried different Hard Sears.)

That narrows it down to the striker/sear engagement, which is also most definitely where the initial grittiness comes from. Without handling the gun, it's hard to speculate which of the two is actually making the noise. I wish I would have known about it last week-- I was in FL (St. Pete) for quite a long period of time and would have liked to check it out!

Yes you are correct. If I remove the slide the click goes away. Working with Scott at Apex over the phone we determined that it was the sear engagement / striker engagement point which is why he sent me another sear to try. Unfortunately it did the same thing but maybe slightly less but that where everything ended as Apex does not find it important to return my many emails or phone calls about this problem. I will say that the pro sear does not do it which seems to indicate it is the Apex sears.

I would have appreciated to had you, or anyone, figure this out. I'm looking at changing to a different platform may Glock or SF since I'm not overly impressed with the accuracy either.

[Sin-ster]

If I were to start with a fresh sear for custom modification, it would be one from Kenny at Speed Shooters Specialties. He sells a CNC tool steel replacement that pretty much matches the standard factory sear.

Oh, so very done-- I had no idea that such a thing existed. That's precisely what I said that I wished existed-- the basic factory profile, but not crap metal/surface treated.

Sweet.

[rack&roll]

I found the Pro sear to be much smoother and it did not have a "click" associated with it on the initial first part of the travel. I can make the sear "click" back and forth, backl and forth prior to moving to the second half of the trigger pull. I have exchanged every part with new parts and it is isolated to the sear. I spoke to Scott at Apex, sent them a video, and received a new sear from Apex that made no to maybe little difference. Since then Apex has ignored all phone calls and emails to solve the problem for over two months now.

The Pro sear with Apex parts is a much smoother trigger action but it is 1/2 heavier from just under 3 to just over 3.

Trident,

I can't thank you enough for making me aware of the Pro sear eliminating the annoying "click" I was getting after installing the Apex CAEK! I tried everything to no avail. When I installed the Pro sear back in my gun...VOILA! "Click" is gone, and the slightly heavier pull is actually more consistent and feels better to me. Thanks for the tip! (I'm finally happy with my M&P production gun. )

[Stan-O]

That's weird, I've got a used (about 300 rounds) M&P Pro 9 a few months back, one made in the beginning of 2012 and I have the opposite experience -- slight "click" (well, maybe not a loud click, but definitely not a smooth pull before you feel the resistance) with the stock Pro sear but once I've installed APEX hard sear that click is totally gone. Except for pre-travel it is very much like my buddy's Kimber.

[Avedis]

full apex competition for me

[P Taylor]

I like the FSS Apex sear with the factory trigger and the overtravel corrected with tig welding the sear block.

[ProGunGuy]

i have all three of the sear and tested them all. the modded ones i did get 4# in my MP45 and Mp40 Pro. The apex that i have in my 9mm FS gets 3.5# the only mods are radiusing and polishing the FPB on all of them. Also cut 1/3 off of the stock FPB spring, which in my opinion is too long in the begining.

the stock Pro sear had a good 4.5# let off, but the reset distance was longer due to the lack of angle on the nub.

If I had to choose, i would mod the stock sear. I had Apex kits for all my MP's, but sold them all after i started modding sears.

[TheBoss]

+1 on Apex.

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